Good talking point against Antis

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hso

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We've argued that suicides should not be factored into overall firearms related deaths for years, yet Antis want to inflate "gun deaths" with those numbers. We've also argued that the rates for these suicides shouldn't be added either. The article from RECOIL used a new GIS analysis of firearms related deaths that associated rate averages to location and found something interesting. The rates of both show a disconnect breaking the myth that guns are the issue. Instead since you see very little overlap in high suicide rates where a gun was used and high murder rates where a gun was used you're seeing no correlation with "guns" themselves. https://www.recoilweb.com/geographic-evidence-that-gun-deaths-are-cultural-162216.html?utm_source=bm23&utm_medium=email&utm_term=Image+-+https://www.recoilweb.com/geographic-evidence-that-gun-deaths-are-cultural-162216.html&utm_content=Gun+Deaths+are+Cultural:+See+the+Stats+for+Yourself+|+Red+Dots+vs+Iron+Sights+|+DIY+Springfield+Hellcat+Trigger+Job&utm_campaign=Recoil+Newsletter+-+8/14/20

Gun suicides account for about two-thirds of gun deaths, so this map is going to look generally like the RST one. No huge surprises here. But there are many regions red in the “gun deaths” map that show blue in the “suicide” map, and the reason why is clear when you look at the “homicide” map here: Note, that in this version, we’ve changed the colors from the original website, in order to make the maps easier to read — the information they contain is the same. Look at the differences between gun homicides and gun suicides.

We hear a lot of banter from the “anti-gun” media that these problems are gun problems, and they’ve concocted this “gun deaths” number in order to lump these into the same problem and gloss over the differences. But if the problem were “guns,” then the hot spots on the suicide map and the hot spots on the homicide map would coincide, and would be related to gun ownership rates. There are only a few places where they overlap. Most of the hot zones for suicide have low homicide rates, and most of the hot zones for homicide have low suicide rates. The difference is stark. Let’s zoom in. Gun suicide is a California problem north of Sacramento. Gun homicide is a problem south of it. We see a geographic boundary that runs through Reno, Sacramento, and San Francisco where suicides are a problem to the north, and homicides are a problem to the south. I hear it’s nice in San Diego, and these maps confirm it.

Screen-Shot-2020-08-13-at-12.16.05-PM-675x266.png
Washington State has generally low homicide rates and suicide rates, out-side of a stretch along the Pacific coast. But anyone who has driven through Washington State knows that the character of the land, and the people, shifts around Spokane and starts to align more with the sorts of folks you meet in Idaho, Montana, and Wyoming. Here gun homicides start to drop and approach zero, while suicides jump into the highest per-capita category. The exact same effects can be seen when you finish your drive eastward and land in Minnesota and the Great Lakes states:


Screen-Shot-2020-08-13-at-12.15.12-PM-675x255.png

Minneapolis has rates of both that equate to central and western Washington, and also has similar demographics. But once you get off into the rural areas to the north and east such as Michigan, the gun suicide rates jump significantly, and the gun homicide
rates crater to zero. It’s obviously not “the guns” there either. The difference in Michigan is tremendous, look at this: There’s basically a horizontal map line at 44 degrees latitude that bisects the peninsula, north of which we have zero gun homicide and lots of gun suicide, and below which we have … Bay City, Flint, Detroit, etc. It’s not the guns here.

Screen-Shot-2020-08-13-at-12.15.25-PM-675x252.png

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Look at Maine and Vermont: gun deaths by homicide are generally homogeneously low across New England, but gun suicide rates spike in Maine. And gun homicide rates crater in northern Vermont and southeastern Maine, where suicide rates are high.

Screen-Shot-2020-08-13-at-12.16.31-PM-675x228.png

Check out Pittsburgh: The counties to the east and north of Pittsburgh fit together like a puzzle piece. We see another one of these geographic boundaries, right down the Allegheny river where the problem flips in Parker, Pennsylvania. Other rivers mark similar boundaries. It’s uncanny.

Screen-Shot-2020-08-13-at-12.16.44-PM-675x227.png

Maryland, DC, and Virginia: Gun homicides in DC and Baltimore are high, suicides are low. Drive west and it flips. Drive south and it flips too, at least until you get to Richmond, after which it flips back. The stretch from Richmond to Norfolk and Virginia Beach is high homicide, low suicide.
 
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We've argued that suicides should not be factored into overall firearms related deaths for years
Both suicides and homicides are bad. Taking suicides "off the table" isn't going to persuade anyone. They'll just say that the fewer guns, the fewer people will kill themselves with guns. Maybe people will then kill themselves with alternate means, but maybe not.
 
Both suicides and homicides are bad. Taking suicides "off the table" isn't going to persuade anyone. They'll just say that the fewer guns, the fewer people will kill themselves with guns. Maybe people will then kill themselves with alternate means, but maybe not.
Sure it will.

People are motivated in their political views primarily out of fear- fear of corona virus, fear of losing their jobs and health insurance, fear of being murdered, etc.

Nobody fears being suicided. Indeed, folks on the left are overwhelmingly in favor of assisted suicide, its a "choice."
 
Both suicides and homicides are bad. Taking suicides "off the table" isn't going to persuade anyone. They'll just say that the fewer guns, the fewer people will kill themselves with guns. Maybe people will then kill themselves with alternate means, but maybe not.

Read the article. The "something interesting" is that it isn't about suicides or homicides. It is about the disconnect in the rates and how they debunk the idea that guns are the issue.
 
Problem with this is that it's a subtle distinction to the committed to either stance on the topic.

Yes, this should be flung at everyone proposing that restricting access to firearms will prevent deaths.
Which, sadly, may rank right up there with insisting that the proponents of such things provide a single example where restricts have actually worked.

This is good data, it further reinforces our position.
But, it also basically just reinforces what "we" already know, too.

So, it's rather a perfect ball chasing hammer in a war of sledgehammmers.
 
Having a few good talking points against anti's is all well and good,,,
But it's not going to do a dang bit of good for our side.

I have never seen an anti change their mind because of a well reasoned argument,,,
So even though I do "argue" with them quite often,,,
I know it's a futile endeavor.

I have seen some anti's change their minds,,,
But like quitting a vice of any kind,,,
It had to be their own idea.

It basically comes down to the old adage,,,
Never try to teach a pig to sing,,,
It only wastes your time,,,
And annoys the pig.

I prefer not to waste my time.

It's much more productive to find people who are on the fence about guns,,,
They are the people that a few "good talking points" might sway to come to our side.

I've brought many a "fence sitter" to our side by taking them to the range,,,
By letting them shoot some .22 LR and handle a few handguns,,,
I've gotten them over their initial fear of guns in general.

These are the people we should be targeting if we want to preserve our gun culture,,,
Not the hard-core anti's who no amount of logical argument will sway.

Aarond

.
 
I have never seen an anti change their mind because of a well reasoned argument,,,
I have as I worked for CA state government full of antis for 26 years before I retired.

When federal judge released inmates out of CA prisons due to "overcrowding" and increased crime rate of many cities, I was met one day by a group of "antis" who had tears running down their faces demanding that I teach them to shoot guns (As they knew I had competed in USPSA matches). Surprised (Actually shocked), when I inquired why the change, they told me that everyone in the office was either victimized by burglary/robbery or knew somebody who were and now feared for their lives and safety of their significant others.

So I took them to the range and taught them the virtues of safe gun handling and defensive shooting techniques. All of them bought guns and many obtained CCW permits. Some even voted for Trump in 2016 and told me they would vote for gun rights/preservation of gun rights for the rest of their lives.

Similar happened with friends and neighbors who were antis or shy of gun ownership ... When the threat of crime gets close to home or hits the house next door, they are interested in gun ownership and want to start a neighborhood watch program (coordinated with police department, of course). And one by one, I took them shooting and they bought guns and many became gun rights/2A supporters.

Since then, I have engaged countless antis, especially the younger progressive generations and converted many to become gun owners, often offering to take them shooting covering all costs including ammunition, gas, refreshments, etc. When they offer to compensate, I simply ask that they spread the word to others to become activists for gun rights/2A.

Good talking point against Antis
Number one talking point I have used which was very effective is inability for law enforcement to provide personal protection when faced with immediate danger of someone kicking the door in as there is no viable counterargument they can offer in response.

"So what would you do when calling 911 won't work" has triggered many interests and converted even the die hard antis to support gun ownership. It's interesting to see them discuss/argue with each other asking, "So really, what would you do?" and after great lengthy discussion exhausting all "reasonable" options, they all default to gun ownership as the best viable option to protect their lives and I happily offer to take them shooting. Some of them who I have already taught to point shoot will explain their experience with others and hearing from "one of them" sheds an interesting light on the subject to sway them. "You mean you have a gun? ... wow."

Reaching the reachable is the objective.
You can't persuade the unreachable.
The recent national unrest and rioting is likely making many "unreachable" to rethink gun ownership and maybe the ones buying guns. ;)

Once they purchase a gun, a major barrier has been broken and may make these new gun owners open to consider new concepts, like keeping the guns they just bought and expanding their ownership to other guns like Pistol Caliber Carbines, just in case they have to defend against/engage multiple threats, like rioters.

I think it's high time to reach out to these new/younger gun owners and provide guidance to responsible gun ownership and guide them to become effective gun rights activists and supporters of 2A.
 
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When federal judge released inmates out of CA prisons due to "overcrowding" and increased crime rate of many cities, I was met one day by a group of "antis" who had tears running down their faces demanding that I teach them to shoot guns

Not to split a hair to finely, but,,,
This falls under:
I have seen some anti's change their minds,,,
But like quitting a vice of any kind,,,
It had to be their own idea.

In the last few months I've seen quite a few "self-converts" myself,,,
But again, it wasn't because of a rational argument,,,
It was plain old fear.

Just saying,,,

Aarond

.
 
Not to split a hair to finely, but,,,
This falls under:


In the last few months I've seen quite a few "self-converts" myself,,,
But again, it wasn't because of a rational argument,,,
It was plain old fear.

Just saying,,,

Aarond

.

If that is what it takes, so be it. Funny how the problem almost seems self correcting. Good comments above. Thank you.
 
I don't like that they put suicides as a firearms deaths. They don't list gravity as the cause of death if someone jumps from a bridge.

Nor do I think it is right that people being shot (justifiably) are also in that lot. Yes, I know firearms played a role in both groups but it is a bit misleading to a soccer mom and just inflates the #'s they like to throw around.
 
The only argument I found convincing is a person perceiving personal threat as from criminals, deranged individuals, a resurgence of governmental direct tyranny, and a resurgence of violent racism. The threat makes the difference. Otherwise, they just see guns as dangerous items to be controlled.

The arguments about reducing gun access to reduce gun suicide attempts and death is complex. It is clear that if a person shows severe depression and suicidal ideation, removing guns is a good idea. Guns offer a quick and immediate method. While there are others, if you slow some folks down in the throws of impulse you can save them. This was shown in some over the counter drug deaths where more difficult packing slowed down attempt to use the drugs.

While this is seen in individual cases, over the long run, suicide rates with other than guns, rise up again. Anyway, the emotional always trumps the rational argument for most folks.
 
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The only argument I found convincing is a person perceiving personal threat.

The threat makes the difference. Otherwise, they just see guns as dangerous items to be controlled.
True.

And right now, there are many reasons for a person to be personally threatened.

That would only work if the "good guys" were able to control the media.

(crickets).
Hardly crickets as we are bombarded by increasing "mainstream media" report of unrest, lawlessness and destruction on a daily basis.
 
I have as I worked for CA state government full of antis for 26 years before I retired.

When federal judge released inmates out of CA prisons due to "overcrowding" and increased crime rate of many cities, I was met one day by a group of "antis" who had tears running down their faces demanding that I teach them to shoot guns (As they knew I had competed in USPSA matches). Surprised (Actually shocked), when I inquired why the change, they told me that everyone in the office was either victimized by burglary/robbery or knew somebody who were and now feared for their lives and safety of their significant others.

So I took them to the range and taught them the virtues of safe gun handling and defensive shooting techniques. All of them bought guns and many obtained CCW permits. Some even voted for Trump in 2016 and told me they would vote for gun rights/preservation of gun rights for the rest of their lives.

Similar happened with friends and neighbors who were antis or shy of gun ownership ... When the threat of crime gets close to home or hits the house next door, they are interested in gun ownership and want to start a neighborhood watch program (coordinated with police department, of course). And one by one, I took them shooting and they bought guns and many became gun rights/2A supporters.

Since then, I have engaged countless antis, especially the younger progressive generations and converted many to become gun owners, often offering to take them shooting covering all costs including ammunition, gas, refreshments, etc. When they offer to compensate, I simply ask that they spread the word to others to become activists for gun rights/2A.


Number one talking point I have used which was very effective is inability for law enforcement to provide personal protection when faced with immediate danger of someone kicking the door in as there is no viable counterargument they can offer in response.

"So what would you do when calling 911 won't work" has triggered many interests and converted even the die hard antis to support gun ownership. It's interesting to see them discuss/argue with each other asking, "So really, what would you do?" and after great lengthy discussion exhausting all "reasonable" options, they all default to gun ownership as the best viable option to protect their lives and I happily offer to take them shooting. Some of them who I have already taught to point shoot will explain their experience with others and hearing from "one of them" sheds an interesting light on the subject to sway them. "You mean you have a gun? ... wow."


The recent national unrest and rioting is likely making many "unreachable" to rethink gun ownership and maybe the ones buying guns. ;)

Once they purchase a gun, a major barrier has been broken and may make these new gun owners open to consider new concepts, like keeping the guns they just bought and expanding their ownership to other guns like Pistol Caliber Carbines, just in case they have to defend against/engage multiple threats, like rioters.

I think it's high time to reach out to these new/younger gun owners and provide guidance to responsible gun ownership and guide them to become effective gun rights activists and supporters of 2A.

Thank you!! If more of us did this, it would go a long way toward maintaining (and, hopefully, restoring) our rights.
 
While I know that logic, reason and facts will not convert an anti in a pro gun individual, I find it intolerable to let stand the nonsense that I have often seen in social media regarding the "need" for more gun control, and I try my best to present facts to show how wrong they are for advocating such control. It doesn't work at all and never has. For some antis, the threat of criminal use of a firearm against themselves or a family member does not seem like a real threat. Living in a relatively safe and affluent suburban community, my oldest daughter just does not believe that she or her family will be the victim of some gun toting criminal. But she fears an accidental shooting by a careless, law abiding gun owner and is fully convinced that she and her family are far safer if there are NO guns available to anyone that is anywhere near her. She does not fear such a misuse or accident by the police because she foolishly believes that the police are all highly trained, responsible gun handlers. Pointing out that I do more shooting than the average LEO and that I am probably far more diligent about gun safety than the average police officer fails to sway her thinking at all. Unfortunately I think that those that say the change will only come to people like my daughter when they personally experience some criminal violent encounter, or have a close call that brings fear into their minds, are correct. Arguments like "better to have a gun and not need one rather than to need one and not have one" fails to move her at all. Sigh.
 
As a nuance to this excellent post, I know people who are mixed. They agree that folks should be able to defend themselves and own a gun but do not see why one would need many guns or military style semi auto long guns (modern sporting rifles, black guns, EBRs, assault rifle or weapons or bang bangs, etc.). They feel that level of weaponry provides more of a risk to society of high intensity massacres than their use in self-defense. The vivid instances of rampages as compared to the not too many instances of such guns being used in a positive light is the crucial contrast. The caring of such long arms by extremist demonstrators of both political flavors confirms this belief.

Certainly, we have seen this viewpoint over the wide range of the gun world with Zumbo, Metcalf and 5 is enough crowd. The ultimate expression is Uncle Joe and his view that a double barrel shotgun might be acceptable in the home.

The gun world had done a horrible job in justifying the possession of these guns. God given rights isn't convincing. The defense against tyranny isn't sold. The NRA says it doesn't sell, so they minimize it. The argument might be a negative for those they politically support as their chosen ones might be seen as incipient tyranny. Interestingly, the tyranny argument is increasing in a demographic that is not part of the NRA's marketing schema. Not to get too political, though.

Thus, we tend to see the possession of guns as a 0,1 situation, yes or no on any restrictions. Outside of the choir, it is more nuanced. You might be ok with a J frame, but not an AR.
 
I once had a discussion with an anti, asking me why I carry, etc, same kind of conversation all of us have had at one time or another. When confronted with a life threatening bad guy said instead of just shooting him should utilize my negotiation skills and de-escalate the situation instead.

My reply: "You mean the same negotiating skills I'm using with you right now?"

Discussion over.
 
The gun world had done a horrible job in justifying the possession of these guns. God given rights isn't convincing. The defense against tyranny isn't sold. The NRA says it doesn't sell, so they minimize it. The argument might be a negative for those they politically support as their chosen ones might be seen as incipient tyranny. Interestingly, the tyranny argument is increasing in a demographic that is not part of the NRA's marketing schema. Not to get too political, though.

Thus, we tend to see the possession of guns as a 0,1 situation, yes or no on any restrictions. Outside of the choir, it is more nuanced. You might be ok with a J frame, but not an AR.
This, exactly. The pro-gun side are terrible strategists. Pro-gunners are preaching to their own choir (as, indeed, are antigunners). There's no dialogue going on.

The strongest argument against gun control is a utilitarian one: there are just too many guns out there to effectively control. Attempts at control would fall unevenly, with the outcome being to disarm the honest and responsible owners, while leaving the "bad guys" untouched.

Nobody's talking about disarming the "bad guys" while leaving the rest of us alone. The focus should be on the users and not on the hardware. I don't care if people own full automatic weapons and artillery as long as they are responsible.
 
There are no good talking points against hoplophobes; they're too bat crap crazy.

My only "talking point" when conversing with hoplophobes is that confiscation will not go the way they think....
 
My only "talking point" when conversing with hoplophobes is that confiscation will not go the way they think....
That's actually a good talking point, but don't couch this as a threat to personally not comply (that always rings hollow). What you're saying is another way of saying what I said, above:
The strongest argument against gun control is a utilitarian one: there are just too many guns out there to effectively control.
When you sit down with antigunners, try to walk them through the consequences of what they're proposing. Compliance is going to be a big part of that, but don't make it personal. A gross reduction in the number of guns extant is one of their goals. Point out that if they succeed in that, it's also going to skew the distribution of the guns that remain. They're not going to like where the guns would be after an attempted confiscation.
 
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