Size round ball for Jukar 45 rifle

A .45 bore generally takes .440 round balls with a .015 or a .010 patch.
Some very tight .45 bores may take a .433 ball with the same patches, or a slightly thicker one at .018 - .020.

A person could try to hammer in an over-sized bare revolver ball with a mallet but it's not usually recommended.
There's only so much extra room in a rifled bore to try to ram over-sized revolver balls, like .451, .454 or .457 which may be stretching it a bit much.
Once a ball is started in the muzzle, then it definitely needs to be rammed all of the way down to the breech in order to sit on top of the powder.
It's better to use a ball that's too small than too large unless you're not afraid to do whatever it takes to muscle it in.
But without trying to load it at least once, all a person can do is to measure the bore diameter and hope that they choose the right ball for the strength of the ramrod.
Is it a Kentucky rifle?

If the grooves are deep enough then a .457 could be muscled in.
But a very thick bore size dowel would probably be needed to use as a ramrod.
And if it's a Kentucky rifle then you need a long one.
But if the lands are closer to .440 with the grooves at .45, then it could be very difficult to ram a .457 ball in.

If loading an over-sized .457 bare ball, the bore will get dirtier with each shot fired, so it would need to be swabbed in between each shot.
And there wouldn't be any lube that's usually applied to the patch to keep the bore fouling soft.
So loading difficulty can also depend on which powder is being used.

Were it my gun, I would slug the bore. You probably can flatten out a .457 ball just a bit with a hammer. Then grease it and the bore, tap the ball into the muzzle, and then pull it out with a screw. (I sometimes will pre-drill a screw hole to make it easier to fish the ball back out.) Hopefully the grooves will be positioned so that they can be easily measured with a dial caliper or micrometer. You will encounter various opinions on what size ball will be appropriate for which size bore (I personally like a ball/patch combo which just fills the grooves, but many/most consider that too loose) but at least you will have solid information upon which to make a decision.

sspierce8 said:

I’m going to tell him to pick up 440. Thanks for the info.

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Did he tell you if it's a .45 Kentucky rifle or not?
Those were fairly common.

I was about to buy a Jukar .45 from a local friend, he wanted a little more than I thought it was worth. I checked the bore and it would not readily accept a .451 ball , as my Hopkins and Allen .45 Bull gun won't . I did not try the .444 Maxi balls that rifle came with (and wins matches with) but it seems close to the H&A bore which indeed takes .433 bals with the common .015 patches. Depending on the rifling depth it probably has around a .440 bore which was common for those .45 rifles made since the 1950s in Europe.

I have a CVA 45cal pistol I shoot 4.40 balls and a .010 patch.

I found sources for 2 different Jukar .45 pistols and a Jukar Kentucky .45 rifle that all use .440 balls and a .010 patch.
One guy also mentioned trying out a bare .454 ball in a pistol.
I hope that a .440 ball works in the rifle being discussed.

I have one of the pistols.

440 ball with a .015-.018 patch works but its pretty tight. The .010 is easier to load and shoot fine.

I'd imagine every one will be a bit different.

I've been tempted to roll a .451 ball in grease and shoot it bare.

My CVA caplock .45 rifle that is stamped Jukar shoots .440 round ball very well. It does not shoot conicals well at all, but it has a 1:60 twist rate, so the reason why isn't a mystery.

Most commonly, as many have mentioned, the .451 or .454 round balls are actually for revolvers, not the rifles, since the revolvers don't use patched ball.

I did some horse tradin' a few years back for a .45 Flintlock rifle to give as a present to a youngster, and I could readily see the stamp on its barrel that read Jukar.. It would not take .440 round ball when I checked it at home. Turns out it needed .433 round ball. Then..., I noticed after a very close examination of the barrel, a spot with a very shallow stamping that read ".44 caliber". I had missed it before.

The rifle was circa 1970's, and I was speaking to several of my fellow black powder shooters who were more surprised that the rifle was actually marked ".44 caliber" and not .45, although it clearly was not a .45 caliber rifle.

One of the cohort explained that many states in the United States required, and some still require, a minimum caliber of .45 for the muzzle loading hunter who hunts deer. Overseas sellers will do a lot for importers who buy the rifles in bulk, and so a lot of the imported BP barrels were ordered marked ".45" or ".45 caliber" when in fact they were a tad smaller. They then could sell the rifle to a hunter who would then be in compliance with the hunting laws.. After all..., even the proper .45 caliber muzzle loaders don't shoot a .45 ball, so is there really any harm in marking your imported barrel .45 and it shoots a .433, which is only .007 smaller than the .440 ?

Free Enterprise has a way of making for odd situations in many areas...,

LD

Some of the top competition shooters do hammer their bore size balls plus a patch into their bores.
And some use a patch that's pre-treated with a Teflon spray as a lube.
They need to swab the bore between each shot because the Teflon leaves a sticky residue, but they can get amazing accuracy.
So a .457 bare ball could also be very accurate, but it's a little risky to recommend it if not prepared to hammer and ram it down a 33 inch barrel.

And then if someone were to load a bare ball of any size, a wad or card on top of the powder could help to contain the blow by of hot gases past the ball which could help performance.
Even a homemade wad of compressed paper over the powder would serve the same purpose.

I still don't see why a lightly hammered lubed ball of bore size filling the grooves over a well seated lubed wad like an Oxyoke isn't the most accurate way to go in a muzzle loader. I must admit I am NOT an expert in the Muzzle loading field, I only developed any interest in it as I grew older . But it seems to me a patch is a very irregular device to deliver a ball in rifling . I did shoot Benchrest tho when I was younger. The H&A bull barreled .45 target rifle I have which won a now deceased Army Col.many European trophies was shot using a bore sized .450 ball seated with a false muzzle onto a felt wad , FWIW. In my C&B revolvers and most everything that is how I prefer to shoot them, but yes shoot the revolvers with lubed balls only sometimes. Seems cleaner and I don't have flaming patches flying about in fire danger areas. I hate cutting patches at the muzzle and have yet to stamp out various precut caliber ones. Just my take.

Gordon said:

I still don't see why a lightly hammered lubed ball of bore size filling the grooves over a well seated lubed wad like an Oxyoke isn't the most accurate way to go in a muzzle loader. I must admit I am NOT an expert in the Muzzle loading field, I only developed any interest in it as I grew older . But it seems to me a patch is a very irregular device to deliver a ball in rifling . I did shoot Benchrest tho when I was younger. The H&A bull barreled .45 target rifle I have which won a now deceased Army Col.many European trophies was shot using a bore sized .450 ball seated with a false muzzle onto a felt wad , FWIW. In my C&B revolvers and most everything that is how I prefer to shoot them, but yes shoot the revolvers with lubed balls only sometimes. Seems cleaner and I don't have flaming patches flying about in fire danger areas. I hate cutting patches at the muzzle and have yet to stamp out various precut caliber ones. Just my take.

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You have a point and I don't know why using patches are the norm other than it seals the ball which gets deformed by the rifling when it's loaded.
That rifling deformation can cause gases to escape which might alter velocity and consistency.
And the lube may help to cut down on friction, abrasion and flame cutting of the ball.
I'm not trying to defend lubed patch use, but rather to explain a justification for it.
Maybe you're on to a loading procedure for that rifle that gave it an advantage over other shooters, which can be transferred to another gun.
I know that I over-saturate patches with Bore Butter that can hurt accuracy, but it helps to eliminate the need to ever swab when loading with Pyrodex P.
The lubed patch keeps whatever fouling there is soft enough to get pushed back down the bore when the next ball is rammed.
I could basically shoot moderate loads all day long without swabbing, and I've never seen a patch over-saturated with Bore Butter burning or smoldering.
The mineral oil it contains has a relatively high flash point and its high viscosity also helps the patch to contain and seal the hot gases.
Some of the excess patch lube gets squeezed out at the muzzle when the PRB is loaded so the amount on the patch stays fairly regulated.
I don't doubt that some patches can burn, but some lubes or powders may lessen the risk.
Perhaps not as many embers are ejected at the muzzle by moderate loads of Pyrodex P, even though PRB accuracy may suffer compared to BP loads.

FFF Black for me baby, except my 10ga. which uses ffg . I don't shoot my 58 or .69 anymore which also used ff Black. The Oxyoke wads seem very dry lubed BTW . I think the patch is just cheaper and traditional. If the ball is engraved slightly as it is loaded I can't think of much deformity happening. Of course the false muzzle on the target rifle helps this. I do load my HUNTING .50 Lyman Stalker with Maxiball type bullets held in the special plastic tubes with the powder ect.

Gordon said:

If the ball is engraved slightly as it is loaded I can't think of much deformity happening. Of course the false muzzle on the target rifle helps this.

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The amount of engraving on the ball is the deformation.
Instead off the ball staying round, the lead is getting displaced.
You're using the deformed parts of the ball to fill in the grooves instead of a patch saturated with a lube.
In the case of Bore Buter, the lube is a wax and mineral oil mixture that has a high viscosity to help block the flames and hot gases trying to climb up the rifling grooves.
Without the patch, it's only the displaced lead from the deformed ball, and the bare lead is in contact with the steel wall of the bore.
In theory, that may not be sealing the powder as well that's still burning and building up pressure as the ball is moving forward up the bore.
There's abrasion, friction and flame action happening where the lead ball meets the steel.
I'm able to over-saturate the patches because I apply it to pre-cut patches and not bulk uncut material.
It's not a big deal, but it's the conventional way of forming a sealed containment chamber within the bore for the powder to burn in with as much consistency as the size of the ball and patch allows.
With a bare ball, after thousands of more shots, the rifling can get more worn out than if a lubed patch were used.
Ask high volume shooters if their barrel has lost accuracy over time, and that's with using lubed patches.
I think that shooting a lot of bare conicals can also help cause a bore to wear.
The false muzzle helps to engrave the ball outside the bore, but lead in direct contact with steel is more abrasive than a cotton patch saturated with lube contacting the steel.

That may be why the chunk gun shooters use both oversize balls and a patch.
But they do need to hammer their balls in because it's a really tight fit.

It's entirely possible that a bare ball can contain the gases just fine, and even do a better job than a loose ball and patch combo. of engaging the rifling.
And your gun proves that.
But not many folks have a false muzzle to help load their rifle with more perfectly.
And over time, wear can happen and bores can change.

Actually you can thank Capt Minnie of Napoleon's army because the french armies use to hammer chunks of lead down their rifles. It was common for infantry to pick up lead along with the dead and wounded after a battle. Lead was then used the next day. Capt Minnie studied the shape of the lead as the story goes and figured out that forming an undersized projectile with a hollow base would be faster to load and just as accurate. The hollow base would of soft lead would expand to seal the bore. And his invention was named after him as we call it a Minnie ball.

I have two .45 cal CVA rifles. One is 20 years old and the other is less than 5 years old and I cast a Lee .440 round ball using roof lead. Measured with a caliper, the balls measure at .360. Funny how that works.