Bore size vs cylinder size.

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Just curious about a couple of things. A .44 caliber cap and ball can be sized for either .451 or .454 balls.
The Ruger Old Army is set up for .457 balls.

I have an 1858 remington replica stainless with a spare cylinder. Well a break in the weather allowed me to get some shooting in. One of the cylinders will shave a nice ring using .451 balls. The other they fall right in. Oops.

So I thought about having the cylinder reamed to the larger size. Is there an optimum cylinder diameter compared to the bore diameter?

Anyone know the common sizes of .44 and .45 bore and groove diameters. I could slug the barrels then measure. Matter of fact, I think I'll do that.

Will post the results.
Thanks,
 
MC Dan,
A standard 29/64th inch reamer is .4531" dia. My ROA barrel slugs ~.451/.452" across the grooves. I had my cylinder reamed at a machine shop to the .4531 dimension and it cleaned up 4 of the 6 holes. (The two holes that did not clean up won't accept a .454 gage pin even a little.) The gun shoots better, but I bet it would do better still with the holes brought up to .454/.455. That would require a custom reamer or an expertly modified 15/32nds one $$$. At some point, correctly sized ball/bullets will become a problem. I expect ROA smiths would know where to have this done.
Good luck on your quest.
 
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OTOH

Grinding a 29/64ths reamer to a FEW thou smaller should be a simple task for a competant machinist if you are shooting a smaller bore .44/.45?
 
Machinist Calipers at work.

Okay slugged the barrels last night and got my calipers after then at lunch.

No easy task trying to get an accurate reading on lead. Like trying to mic a marshmallow.

My question is....

What is the ideal chamber diameter compared to groove diameter? Is there a plus or minus to having too large or too small a chamber compared to groove diameter?

Makes sense to me that having about 1 or 2 thousandth interference (chamber larger than groove diameter) would give you higher pressure and possibly better sealing.

Would there be anything wrong with using the 29/64 ream on all my .44 revolvers then shoot .457 round balls?

inquiring minds and all.

I have a similar problem with a newly acquired .36 caliber as well. The chamber will shaves a .375 ball but the barrel slugs a groove diameter of .3775. It would seem to me that you would NOT want the chamber to be smaller than the groove diameter. I would think that would cause some gas leakage as it travels down the barrel.

It could be the swaging of the lands into the ball expands the groove area as well. I'm guessing here.

My only beef is having several size balls for different firearms.

Tossing around the idea of using only .457 balls and reaming all the cylinders to the same .454ish diameter.
 
Dan, you're right about the chamber being 1 or 2 thou over groove diameter. That's optimal and what Big Iron and the others try to achieve when they ream your chambers.

Having too small of chambers negatively effects accuracy, as the ball doesn't seat into the rifling well and you get some gas cutting. Having one too large causes leading and the ball deforms as it encounters the rifling.

I would slug the bores of each one you intend to ream, to make sure you're within those limits, rather than just reaming them all without checking. Good luck and let us know how it goes.
 
measured bore sizes

Okay slugged the barrels. My ROA is off getting some Rooger free forever repair work done so that one is out.

Let me make sure I have this right. Looking at the barrel, (not the bullet)
The "Land" is the smaller diameter
The "groove" is the larger, which is cut in the bore for rifling.

The bullet is the opposite. The Groove diameter should be fairly close to bullet diameter. The land then bites into the bullet making it spin as it exits.

Measuring three different .44cal percussion
revolvers.
1858 Rem Brass frame kit gun .4385 land, .4480 groove. Which shaves a .451 ball as it is loaded into the cylinder.

1858 Rem Stainless Pietta, .4410 land, .4490 groove. Which has two cylinders different sizes what started this whole quandry.

1860 Colt Stainless ? .4415 land, .4505 groove. Which barely shaves a .454 ball as it is loaded.

Hmmm, I think I liked it better when I was less informed.
Pretty big spread.
 
You got it right. If the chamber diameter is a 1-2 thousandth over groove diameter, the ball only needs to slightly conform to the barrel to make a perfect seal, while the lands engage it for spin. That's pretty much the optimal setup for accuracy and reduced leading. Most black powder revolvers have undersized chambers which is not conducive to maximum accuracy.
 
I've been reaming my revolver cap&baller chambers for years. Example...... my Uberti Walker, which has taken down hole digging ground hogs in the farm pastures out to 200 yards and even much further is reamed to be .467 in the chambers half way down in them and has a barrel that measures .464 in the barrels grooves. I use a .472 ball for that gun and others I have. I've found that equal chambers to barrel grooves works well but.....I like the ball to come from the reamed chambers at .003's bigger than the barrels grooves. Measuring those barrel grooves diameter in cap&ballers with the seven groove barrels is a tricky one. Calipers give a small reading compared to what the barrels diameters in the grooves really are. Gotta bump up an over size ball (two rods ,one at each end on each side of the ball and hit one while not letting the other move)in the barrel and tap it out and measure it very very carefully. Why bump up a ball that is oversize fer the barrel to begin with? Well, as strange as it sounds balls that are over size to begin with and pushed into the barrels can still leave openings in the bottom of the grooves in the barrels. Put one in a barrel and look out the window with it. You'll see. Barrels with shallower grooves don't do that as much as ones with deeper grooves.
That phenomenon could probably explain some accuracy problems in cap&ballers. It seems as though the elasticity of lead lets the metal be pushed back on the ball by the lands of the barrel and actually "pull" lead out of the grooves a little when doing so. I guess having a ball at least .003 over the groove diameter helps that not to happen when the gun fires with the help of the lead obstuation.
The chambers only need to be reamed as far down as the ball will ever be seated with your min. powder charge. I remember Big Iron conveying they do the chambers at a taper for some reason and go all the way down. I don't recommend that. Doing that it's not possible to see that little step inside the chambers and ascertain that the reamer was centered well .
Ifin a pard has a drill press then he can get an economical chucking reamer to do the job. Chucking reamers come in sizes in .001 steps. Some in .0005 steps. About $12.00 fer one.
A cap&ball revolver thus reamed in the chambers to be equal to the barrels grooves or .001-.003 larger makes the danged things shoot as good or better than any cartridge gun I've ever fired. The pressure does rise fir sure. I can tell by the crack when the gun is fired. Never had any problem though even with heavy loads. I believe the chambers can be reamed even bigger than .003 over compared to the barrels grooves. Like .005-.006. You know when using just round balls.
One thing for sure. A clean barrel is a must fer accurate shooting even with blackpowder guns. The use of a proper recipe for making and using lube pills "under" the ball is the best way to be accurate with a "clean barrel" and have the gun run longer before cylinder drag. Like 200 plus shots and a clean barrel and a turning cylinder.
Not all cap&ballers need the reaming to be accurate even when the chambers are smaller than the grooves. The worst scenario for smaller chambers is when the chambers are .001-.002 smaller for some reason. A gun(cap&baller) can fire fairly accurate with chambers .004-.006 smaller than the grooves of the barrel and then have the chambers reamed to be larger and just .001-.002 smaller than the grooves and have accuracy go right to hell. I think it's the spaces between the ball in the barrel and the bottom of the grooves being smaller than if the gun had chambers .004-.006 smaller that creates ultra pressure thru the openings in the grooves gas cutting the ball.
Anywhooo...ifin ya want to use yer mill or have a good drill press and drill vise and can set up to ream center in the chambers a guy can ream his own chambers with a chucking reamer. "Use four flute-straight flute chucking reamers so the reamer doesn't try to pull it self into the hole".
The problem is setting up to be centered on the chamber. Finding the center of an existing hole. Plenty of machinists can find the spot where to drill a hole but have trouble finding the exact center of an existing hole. The Osbourn method don't work fer that either. I measure the chambers(they are not all the same on every gun wirth some slightly different in diameter a lot) and locate center by using a straight rod that's filed while chucked up and making it as close to the size of the hole as can be and still slip in. When you have a "pointer" like that so close to the size of the hole then when it can be slipped in the hole without interference when it's chucked up then it's centered well enough. The pointer has to be slipped in the chamber and not put too far past the opening of the chamber because for some odd reason a lot of the cap&ballefs come out of the box with tapered chambers gettin smaller as they go down.

I've been an advocate of properly sized chambers for a long time. Since I realized the chambers are smaller than the barrels grooves in cap&ballers. That makes fer flyers for sure like a bad crown does. I've found that the Italians make fer smaller chambers due to the fouling of subsequent shots with the blackpowder fouling. That's what I've been told anywhooo.....
Not all cap&ballers are sized small in the chambers. The Pietta Distressed finish revolvers have equal chambers to grooves as does the Pietta "Shooters Model" Remington and the Pedersoli Remington and the Pedersoli Rodgers and Spencer has chambers .001 smaller than the barrels grooves. The Uberti 1862 Pocket Police five shot has equal chambers and grooves too. The Ruger Ols Army is sized to be .003 bigger in the chambers than the barrels grooves. Well, anywhooo...
I hope to be offering cap&baller gunsmithing soon and the chambers being reamed would be one option to be done. I moved and closed my shop and haven't set back up yet. I'm actually a muzzleloader rifle man as much as a cap&baller revolver man. hee hee hee I really enjoy both. Being retired gives me the time to play more. :neener:
Hope this has been a help to anyone looking fer answers. What I post is expressing my opinions for the sake of conversing and I don't recommend that anyone change anything on their guns. You know...liability. A man makes his own decisions and does what he wants to do on his own. Right?
Hey Motorcycle Dan.........ever been around New Castle straight out on east state route 36? You know past Wal-Mart heading out past Howard and Millwood? In the little town of New Castle where that Topless Dancer place is in that old Hardware store on the main drag? You know next to where ole man what's his name parks that old tractor and them old trucks? Where the house next door to it burned down? Just down from Peggy Sues restaurant? Anywhooo.....sorry for the long post. Too much cocoa in my coffee.
 
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