jonnyc
Member
The best answer to your question is .300 BLK.
Caliber effectiveness for defense at short range
- Thread starter Balrog
- Start date
- Status
entropy
Member
I have been hit by a flash bang, https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/specialty-ammo-shotgun.874866/#post-11643051 , My 7.5" AR was a 'poof' next to one.
Gordon
Member
Since this is a rifle forum and AR-15 calibers were mentioned I ASSUMED you meant "fighting carbines " which really are neutered sub guns you are talking about. In that vain the 5.56 has a pretty distinct tract record and lots of product improvement behind it to be the overwhelming choice IMHO . Yup UP to 50 yards the gauge rules non armored subjects. The fast action of CQB really is in it's corner ! I spent lots of training time under the great masters of CQB and did some myseff in the stone age . I took an Ithaca Model 37 12ga. LAPD Deerslayer up Hamburger hill in 1969 in lieu of all other platforms I could have had to supplement my 1911a1 ! 
long personal story on the LAPD gun I had a general's permission slip for !
Howsomever, in the Modern World Condition the gauge fails on armored subjects with body shots. I would imagine a 12 gauge Brenneke would smart if one hit my old Safariland 3+ "raid vest" , but no holes will be punched. Course thats why always go for the cabeza if possible with any gun !
Back to rifles the green tip Milspec load or better can penetrate pretty good non plate IV armor. It will do it from 10 inch or longer barrels for sure. IDF Team guys who are my besties use the 10.5 and 11.5" barrel platforms in 5.56 and say that within 200 meters only a plate IV will take a body hit with the 5.56 (all though I do think they use a 77 grain heavy bullet) . Same report from the Sand Box over the years too. I have all sorts of formats to use for defense. .300 Blackout pistols with Night vision and short M7.62 FALs ect. and tricked out 7.62 x39 AKs (my second choice !) but my final choice in a fighting weapon under 200 yards is a Noveske Infidel 12.5" M4 carbine with an Aimpoint . I really keep near me a 9.5" very unusual brace equipped Noveske Pistol with a flaming pig on it and it is NOT a concussion grenade in a room !! probably in front of the muzzle its really loud tho it is faster to deck targets in the face than my little 12ga 870 friend that I can snick snick like lightning. The lack of recoil helps !
long personal story on the LAPD gun I had a general's permission slip for !Howsomever, in the Modern World Condition the gauge fails on armored subjects with body shots. I would imagine a 12 gauge Brenneke would smart if one hit my old Safariland 3+ "raid vest" , but no holes will be punched. Course thats why always go for the cabeza if possible with any gun !
Back to rifles the green tip Milspec load or better can penetrate pretty good non plate IV armor. It will do it from 10 inch or longer barrels for sure. IDF Team guys who are my besties use the 10.5 and 11.5" barrel platforms in 5.56 and say that within 200 meters only a plate IV will take a body hit with the 5.56 (all though I do think they use a 77 grain heavy bullet) . Same report from the Sand Box over the years too. I have all sorts of formats to use for defense. .300 Blackout pistols with Night vision and short M7.62 FALs ect. and tricked out 7.62 x39 AKs (my second choice !) but my final choice in a fighting weapon under 200 yards is a Noveske Infidel 12.5" M4 carbine with an Aimpoint . I really keep near me a 9.5" very unusual brace equipped Noveske Pistol with a flaming pig on it and it is NOT a concussion grenade in a room !! probably in front of the muzzle its really loud tho
it is faster to deck targets in the face than my little 12ga 870 friend that I can snick snick like lightning. The lack of recoil helps !
Last edited:
By short range, I am not meaning specifically indoor use. I live in the country on a farm. Occasionally, I need to shoot a wild dog or fox that is messing with my chickens. I figured whatever I pick for that purpose, I could use for home defense if needed too. I don't think I want to use a shotgun because I don't want to hit my own animals with pellets, and I would like a gun that recoils less that wife will be more comfortable shooting. She has shot ARs in 556, 9mm, and 10mm and handles them much better than a shotgun.
5.56
lemaymiami
Member
Agree with most that the 5.56 is the most practical given the stated parameters... However will state that for me - "close quarters" is at less than fifty feet and as always my first choice for that will be the shotgun with 00buck or ordinary slugs as needed.... Put simply, it's a one shot fight ender if you do your part when needed.
Yes, modern days mean you might actually be facing someone with body armor... We've actually had more than a few cases down here in south Florida where rip-off types were not only wearing armor but at times were in uniform because they were actually cops.... Not a problem for this 'gunner. All that's needed if you even suspect an armored opponent is a slightly lowered point of aim.... since the vast majority of all commonly available body armor (not including government issue combat gear...) stops at the belt line. I was very aware of that shortcoming since I really did wear body armor for the entire 22 years I spent as a cop... even in the heat of August on the street during day shifts. My first body armor was at my own expense back in 1974 - not very effective - and not comfortable at all but it was a few years after that before the gear not only improved but was finally being issued by my Department...
Happy to report that I never needed it but did know officers that died while wearing armor... Glad I'm long out of that world.
Yes, modern days mean you might actually be facing someone with body armor... We've actually had more than a few cases down here in south Florida where rip-off types were not only wearing armor but at times were in uniform because they were actually cops.... Not a problem for this 'gunner. All that's needed if you even suspect an armored opponent is a slightly lowered point of aim.... since the vast majority of all commonly available body armor (not including government issue combat gear...) stops at the belt line. I was very aware of that shortcoming since I really did wear body armor for the entire 22 years I spent as a cop... even in the heat of August on the street during day shifts. My first body armor was at my own expense back in 1974 - not very effective - and not comfortable at all but it was a few years after that before the gear not only improved but was finally being issued by my Department...
Happy to report that I never needed it but did know officers that died while wearing armor... Glad I'm long out of that world.
jdh
Member
- Joined
- Jan 5, 2008
- Messages
- 1,376
We were doing disturbance control training. The team leader thought he was throwing a gas grenade at us. It wasn't. It went off four feet away from us.
jdh
Member
- Joined
- Jan 5, 2008
- Messages
- 1,376
So you never practice with the firearm you choose to protect yourself? Short barrel AR, indoor range, ear plugs with muffs over them = still uncomfortably loud,to me anyway.
George Dickel
Member
I recently bought an 11.5" pistol upper in 5.56 for a lower I had laying around. I picked the 11.5" because all my reading on pistol uppers indicates that it works well with a carbine gas system and the extra barrel length provides sufficient velocity for longer distances. From my reading I've found that pistol cartridge uppers can have reliability problems and with a self defense weapon reliability trumps all. Waiting on a lower parts kit before I can try it out.
C-grunt
Member
Ive shot a lot of 5.56 indoors. Lots of it in tight quarter shoot house and more than a couple rounds in the real world with a M249. It's not anywhere close to a flashbang.
If Im choosing a long gun for defense, I'll choose a rifle cartridge over a pistol cartridge. Im not saying that a pistol carbine isn't a good choice or effective.... I love the MP5 and wouldn't hesitate to use a PCC for self defense, but they still aren't rifles.
If Im choosing a long gun for defense, I'll choose a rifle cartridge over a pistol cartridge. Im not saying that a pistol carbine isn't a good choice or effective.... I love the MP5 and wouldn't hesitate to use a PCC for self defense, but they still aren't rifles.
Plus who said anything about practice? Your not going to be messing around with earplugs etc when the proverbial thug is bumping around downstairs. And for one or maybe two shots? Whatever..... as i previously stated the bang on your ears will be amongst the least of your concerns.
jeff-10
Member
11" is basically a pistol length barrel so I guess I would go with a pistol cartridge, the 10mm. If you were talking a 14" plus barrel, I would definitely go 5.56mm.
Yes, it is only 3 inches but it is a 25% increase in barrel length which makes a considerable difference.
Yes, it is only 3 inches but it is a 25% increase in barrel length which makes a considerable difference.
bfoosh006
Member
- Joined
- Jan 29, 2008
- Messages
- 1,097
Remember, A 9MM PCC , even with added velocity of a 16" barrel, 9MM bullets drop like a 22LR round after about 125yds. That is , it has serious trajectory issues past 125yds... that isn't to say hits past 125yds can't be done... but...
Inside 50yds, the added velocities can easily "over-whelm" handgun HP bullet designs, in soft targets, causing shallow / less then preferred FBI standard penetration.
A 5.56 is going to have a far better trajectory , and energy retention. And, given the numerous excellent 5.56/ .224 bullet designs out there.. IMHO, a 5.56 is a far better choice over the 2 pistol caliber choices listed.
That said.. I see little use for a 5.56 barrel length shorter then 10.5". I prefer at least 11.5"+ barrel lengths in 5.56... and as mentioned 12.5" might be perfect for current environments.
Low Recoil makes a 5.56 very easy to control, and parts, magazines and ammo ( kinda ) are common in the USA.
If you wanted enhanced accuracy, an AR is very easy to make shoot more precisely , typically just a barrel replacement can greatly improve accuracy over bulk barrels.
Inside 50yds, the added velocities can easily "over-whelm" handgun HP bullet designs, in soft targets, causing shallow / less then preferred FBI standard penetration.
A 5.56 is going to have a far better trajectory , and energy retention. And, given the numerous excellent 5.56/ .224 bullet designs out there.. IMHO, a 5.56 is a far better choice over the 2 pistol caliber choices listed.
That said.. I see little use for a 5.56 barrel length shorter then 10.5". I prefer at least 11.5"+ barrel lengths in 5.56... and as mentioned 12.5" might be perfect for current environments.
Low Recoil makes a 5.56 very easy to control, and parts, magazines and ammo ( kinda ) are common in the USA.
If you wanted enhanced accuracy, an AR is very easy to make shoot more precisely , typically just a barrel replacement can greatly improve accuracy over bulk barrels.
- Status
