Best subsonic caliber?

[gvnwst]

- the smaller the casing, the less powder needed to reach velocity and the less drastic the velocity spread

Sorta. With a abigger case you need more powder to keep the pressure up. Smaller casing, less powder for the same pressure. Heavier bullets have more energy for any given velocity, and usually have better BCs (note that a BC of .5 will drp all of 3" more, but lose 20FPE) so do slightly better.


I have not had any experiance with EBR ammo, i stay away from subsnic .308 loads. (see about half way down Lutz's page for why)

I do not know what you are talking about, a backwayds 220gr SMK, they are loaded the correct way. I don't know what the specs of .45 hydrashok ammo are, but the whisper loaded properly with 240gr bullets drops about 5 feet 6 inches, and has about 520 FPE at 200yd.

2) Easily attainable ammo would be nice. (I don't currently reload. I save all my brass because one day I intend to get into it. But I like the convenience of being able to just grab a box of ammo off the shelf and go shoot.)

Well then, you are pretty much limited to the EBR ammo and handgun loads. Subsonic designed cartridges don't have all that much factory ammo out there, but as before stated, Cor-Bon makes some good .300 whisper stuff, just order a bunch.

We know the 45ACP is very capable of quickly killing people. Is it at all effective against the 4-legged variety (coyotes, pigs, deer, etc...)?

Most people i have taked to who hunt with the .45acp say t is good on deer for at least 50yd, but they would not go much past that.

 

[jlg]

The backwards bullet thing came from several sites that I read. They stated that loading the bullet backwards caused it to tumble when it hit the target doing more damage.

They also stated that flying normal at subsonic speeds the sharp point would generally just push the flesh away doing little damage.

 

[gvnwst]

Intresting idea i guess. I would think that the same tumbeling that made it be good in flesh would reduce accuracy though. If i wanted the ultimate in terminal ballistics, i would order some of those bullets from Lutz.

 

[Ranb]

I own and shoot 5.56, 308, 510 whisper, 338 whisper, 300 whisper, 458 socom, 9mm, 22lr all suppressed. According to my own biased, subjective and uncalibrated ear, they are from most to least noisy; 458 socom, 5.56, 9mm, 308, 510 whisper, 338 whisper, 300 whisper then 22lr. The 458 is loudest because of the large bore and the can is much smaller than the 510. The 9mm is louder than the whispers because of the much smaller can, the 50% smaller powder charge (compared to the 300W) is not enough to keep it less noisy. The 22lr has by far the smallest powder charge and the 1x6 inch can is much large than all the others compared to the cartridge capacity. My 308 is less noisy than the 5.56 due to it being a bolt vs semi, and the can is 12" long vs the 8" 5.56 can. I only shoot supersonic in the 5.56 and 308, the rest are subsonic only.

I use WC820 (like H110) in the whispers because it gives a small stdev, it is too fast to cycle the 458 socom upper on my ar-15 when shooting subsonic.

I tried loading bullets backwards to keep them stable (front heavier than back requires less twist) but they were very inaccurate. I got better results from properly loaded ammo keyholing into the target.

It costs me about $20 to $50 plus tax to make my silencers at home. Fun hobby, just a bit more paperwork, but less expensive than loading ammo. I cast round nose bullets for the 458 socom, 510/338/300 whispers. They are a bit less accurate than jacketed bullets, but much cheaper.

Has anyone here used the Corbon 300 whisper 220 subsonic? What was the actual velocity? Pricey stuff isn't it?

Ranb

 

[Bigfoot]

Some good info there Ranb, thanks. Since your .510 Whisper isn't too loud I'd guess that a good supressor will quiet a .45 just fine.

My 308 is less noisy than the 5.56 due to it being a bolt vs semi, and the can is 12" long vs the 8" 5.56 can.

This argues for a fast action other than a semi-auto. I think the old Hush Puppy pistols used a lever to lock the slide shut.

Most people i have taked to who hunt with the .45acp say t is good on deer for at least 50yd, but they would not go much past that.

The 45ACPs limited bullet weight is a large reason for this.

I agree that a .45 caliber pistol cartridge is the best compromise in terminal performance, ammo availability, range and sound.

I went with the Taurus Thunderbolt pump in 45LC. It has a long 26" barrel for good powder burn. I can load 300+ grain bullets for good penetration while hunting. It seals the action better than a semi and it has a very short, very fast action. I haven't recieved the reloading gear for it yet but we'll see what it can do this summer. Look into it JLG.

 

[Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow]

If I had an unlimited budget this probably wouldn't be such a difficult decision for me.

To understand some of my questions, here is my final goal...
1) accurate to 200 yards (A 2-3 inch group would suffice. I'm not shooting competitions, I'm killing things and everything I intend to kill has a vital zone larger than 2-3 inches.)
2) Easily attainable ammo would be nice. (I don't currently reload. I save all my brass because one day I intend to get into it. But I like the convenience of being able to just grab a box of ammo off the shelf and go shoot.)
3) Needs to be able to kill at range. (I know even a .22lr can kill at range. I want a fairly quick kill. I don't want to track an animal all the way across the county and if the weapon is ever used in a self defense scenario I want it to end the fight with one shot.) This point brings up a question about the possibility of using a 45ACP...We know the 45ACP is very capable of quickly killing people. Is it at all effective against the 4-legged variety (coyotes, pigs, deer, etc...)?

Dude, if you really want to accomplish your goal, go back and read what I wrote on page 1, and then re-read it again, and ignore anything to the contrary, or you're shooting yourself in the foot.

Lookit, assuming an accurate gun, your ability to (a) minimize wind drift estimation error, and (b) minimize holdover estimation error, are entirely dependent on TWO things (in addition to your skill): Bullet velocity, and Bullet BC. In THIS particular case, with a subsonic bullet, ONE of those two factors, muzzle velocity, is a set constant, under the speed of sound, right around 1,050 fps. That means the ONLY thing you have to work with, above and beyond skill level, which will help improve your accuracy at range (and make no mistake, 200 yards is a loooong ways with a subsonic), is BULLET BC. Particularly, wind drift estimation error.

The .500 phantom / .510 whisper uses bullet with BCs head and shoulders above (much much MUCH better) than any other subsonic round. That's the way to go if you're SERIOUS about it. However, .50 cal cans are very very expensive. 338 spectre is the next best thing, because you can use a simple 9mm pistol can with subsonic ammo, and get into it for a reasonable price. And .338 bullets have better BCs than .30 cal bullets, not to mention, more weight/energy/oomph. So .300 Whisper is not a BAD choice, but it's not as good of a choice as .338 spectre or .500 Phantom / .510 whisper. But 9x19mm, .45 acp ARE bad choices for this application (shooting accurate to 200 yards), due to the horrid BCs. Look at the links from my post on page 1 to get started, or PM me. .338 spectre is where it's at for me personally, as the best balance of performance and reasonable price to get into. Relative to a .50 cal can, a 9mm can is a mere pittance. But again, if budget is unlimited, you're not gonna beat the .500 Phantom / .510 whisper.

If your goal was to get a 5-10 inch group at 200, then .45 acp would be fine, but if you want to get under 4-5" groups realistically at 200 yards, then you've got to step up from a pistol caliber.

It should also be noted that you're talking about HUNTING with such a rig. Well, for hunting, you *definitely* want the higher sectional densities and weights of the calibers I mention: .300 whisper, .338 spectre, .500 phantom / .510 whisper.

So FORGET pistol calibers (unless you change your specifications).

 

[Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow]

Here, I'll repeat from page 1:

1) quietness
2) effectiveness on a live target
3) range

The .500 Phantom is unbeatable in that area:

http://www.feistyrooster.com/500phantom/index.html

But since .50 cal suppressors are VERY expensive, the .338 spectre is the next best thing, and reasonable to get into to with a 9mm suppressor:

http://www.reedsammo.com/Page4.html

.300 Whisper comes in 3rd place.

 

[jlg]

Dude, if you really want to accomplish your goal, go back and read what I wrote on page 1, and then re-read it again, and ignore anything to the contrary, or you're shooting yourself in the foot.

I've read your post several times and done some research on both the 500 Phantom and the 338 Spectre.

One of the biggest turn offs with them is that they haven't become as "main stream" as the Whisper. There's less info on them as a weapon and less reloading info. Since I do not currently reload I don't want to start out learning on a caliber that doesn't have a good wealth of knowledge available.

That being said, the 338 Spectre is VERY interesting. One of the sites you posted builds uppers for it for just over $800...not too bad considering I'll end up spending about 3 times that on optics and a can.

The sight mentioned that they sell loaded ammo for the 338 Spectre but I didn't see a price. Do you happen to know the cost of ammo for this platform...bot buying already loaded and approximate cost to load your own?

In my opinion the cost of ammo is a bigger determining factor than the price of the weapon. You only have to buy the firearm once...you'll be buying ammo for it for the rest of your life.

 

[newdude]

This is most intresting...

 

[gvnwst]

Dr. Tad. While what most of what you said is correct, ie, the .500 Phantom is best, the .338 spectre has pratically NO advantage over the .300 whind and drop wise, it only has more energy. The BC of the 300gr .338" SMK and the 240gr .308 SMK are almost the same. Also, even with a .5bc 300gr projo, you have only one INCH less drop at 200yd then a 240gr .7bc one. Now, the extra energy in nice! Main "problem" with the spectre is it uses different mags. While .223 masg can be used, they can only hold a limited number, while the .300 whisper in .223 mags holds full capacity.

This is most intresting...

yeah, subsonics are really fun to play with

 

[Zak Smith]

The .500 phantom / .510 whisper uses bullet with BCs head and shoulders above (much much MUCH better) than any other subsonic round. That's the way to go if you're SERIOUS about it

While this is true, the difference in ballistics for subsonic rounds (for rifle calibers) is pretty minimal:

_Bullet_           _BC_ _MV_         0      50     100     150     200     250     300 | YARDS
.30 150           0.400 1100 >   -0.00    0.00    4.64   11.23   18.48   26.11   34.05 | drop (moa)
.30 240SMK        0.71* 1100 >   -0.00    0.00    4.50   10.85   17.76   24.99   32.42 | drop (moa)
.30 300SMK        0.77* 1100 >   -0.00    0.00    4.48   10.80   17.68   24.85   32.22 | drop (moa)
.50 750 AMAX      1.080 1100 >   -0.00    0.00    4.42   10.65   17.39   24.39   31.57 | drop (moa)

.30 150           0.400 1100 >    0.00    0.31    1.22    2.70    4.70    7.23   10.24 | wind (inches)
.30 240SMK        0.71* 1100 >    0.00    0.18    0.73    1.62    2.84    4.38    6.24 | wind (inches)
.30 300SMK        0.77* 1100 >    0.00    0.17    0.67    1.48    2.60    4.02    5.73 | wind (inches)
.50 750 AMAX      1.080 1100 >    0.00    0.12    0.47    1.04    1.83    2.84    4.06 | wind (inches)

The difference at 200 yards between a vanilla 150-175gr .308 bullet (BC 0.4) and a .50 750gr AMAX (BC 1.08) is only just over one MOA (2") elevation. Comparing the 240gr SMK to the 750 AMAX at 200, the 240 doesn't even have twice the wind drift of the big bullet.

 

[Ranb]

A 45 cal pistol bullet with a BC of .145 has about 30% more drop and velocity change than a rifle bullet with a BC >.60.

Wasn't the 500 phantom discontinued due to inconsistant brass supply? I was interested in one for a semi-auto as the 510 whisper I shoot is only for bolt and silngle shot guns AFAIK

Ranb

 

[Ranb]

In my opinion the cost of ammo is a bigger determining factor than the price of the weapon. You only have to buy the firearm once...you'll be buying ammo for it for the rest of your life.

You got that right. I use surplus 50 bmg bullets in my 510 whisper instead of amax (>$2 each) and cast RN in the 300 and 338 instead of the expensive Sierra match bullets.

Ranb

 

[taliv]

my next suppressed project is using the 480ruger cartridge.

the advantages include:
heavy projectile (400g gold dot)
projectiles designed for terminal effectiveness at slow speeds (unlike most of the rifle projectiles that behave poorly under 2400+ fps)
short cartridge
i've already got bullets/brass/dies/etc

disadvantages:
it's rimmed
projectiles are flat tip and base, so don't have the long-range ballistics of typical rifle cartridges

 

[Bigfoot]

If anyone, anyone would make a high BC rifle bullet that expands when subsonic I'd switch to that cartridge. Too bad about those A-MAX bullets. What sense is higher energy on target when the bullet uses most of that energy on the dirt behind the target. Hoping that the bullet tumbles within the target isn't an option unless it does so reliably.

Now I'm hoping that someone here will show us some good terminal effects (that are reliable) from those rifle bullets because I love high BC bullets. At one time I put a custom bullet maker in touch with some 300 Whisper guys but he just couldn't make the bullets expand reliably. I was suggesting a tipped, heavily skived bullet with a very thin forward jacket. This was several years ago though so please update me.

 

[Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow]

Well, if "mainstream" is a major factor (didn't realize that), then .300 whisper (aka .300 fireball) is the way to go, espec. since Zak clarified the minimal practical difference.

Dr. Tad. While what most of what you said is correct, ie, the .500 Phantom is best, the .338 spectre has pratically NO advantage over the .300 whind and drop wise, it only has more energy. The BC of the 300gr .338" SMK and the 240gr .308 SMK are almost the same. Also, even with a .5bc 300gr projo, you have only one INCH less drop at 200yd then a 240gr .7bc one. Now, the extra energy in nice! Main "problem" with the spectre is it uses different mags. While .223 masg can be used, they can only hold a limited number, while the .300 whisper in .223 mags holds full capacity.

Alright, points taken, BUT wouldn't it still be the case that a 9mm pistol suppressor can be had cheaper than a .30 cal suppressor for .300 whisper? I suppose you COULD use a 9mm suppressor for .300 whisper, but seems to me it wouldn't work *quite* as well as with a .338 bullet - there would be .056" diameter of extra space upon exit with .300 whisper, rather than .018" extra space, which is more than a 200% increase in extra diameter (& area) where gas can escape. Does anyone make a cheap but effective "pistol" can, specifically designed for the .300 whisper? I'm trying to get into a suppressor here without breaking the bank.

On the mags, I see your point, but I personally consider that a non-issue, as I'm going to build a single shot turnbolt or repeater turnbolt. But with a semi-auto platform, sure, the whisper is tried and true, and uppers are cheap.

But I think we all agree that pistols cals should be ruled out, for this gentleman's goals.

 

[Bigfoot]

From JLG

Wouldn't a 230gr 45ACP Hydroshock be pretty close to equal to a 220gr SMK loaded backwards? And I would think that since the Hydroshock is designed to expand at subsonic velocities that you would get more "kill" power from it than a backwards flying SMK.

From me.

If anyone, anyone would make a high BC rifle bullet that expands when subsonic I'd switch to that cartridge. Too bad about those A-MAX bullets. What sense is higher energy on target when the bullet uses most of that energy on the dirt behind the target. Hoping that the bullet tumbles within the target isn't an option unless it does so reliably.

Now I'm hoping that someone here will show us some good terminal effects (that are reliable) from those rifle bullets because I love high BC bullets. At one time I put a custom bullet maker in touch with some 300 Whisper guys but he just couldn't make the bullets expand reliably. I was suggesting a tipped, heavily skived bullet with a very thin forward jacket. This was several years ago though so please update me.

Both posts went unanswered. Would I be correct in assuming that the pistol bullet/cartridge shooters are interested in thumping live targets and the rifle bullet based guys are interested in shooting paper targets?

 

[Ranb]

I am not interested in using pistols cartridges/bullets on live targets. I do have round nose bullets for my subsonic rifle cartridges that are suitable for hunting, though I have yet to use them on game.

Ranb

 

[Zak Smith]

A long 240 or 300gr SMK is going to do a lot of damage to anything it hits. It's going to go end over end rather quickly. One of my shooting buddies has killed many hogs with 240grs out of a 300 Whisper.

 

[skinewmexico]

I want a 300 Whisper to shoot hogs. Actually, I want a 300/221, so brass and dies are cheap.

 

[Zak Smith]

My 300 is actually a Fireball.

 

[Kind of Blued]

After doing some research, the .300-221 is starting to look REALLY appealing, mainly just because it isn't that expensive to get into if you already have ARs, mags, and reloading equipment. The same could be said for the .338 Spectre, although brass availability is a bit of a pain, as well as the lack of bolt and magazine interchangability. With the .300, we're talking about energy levels at or below those posted by cartridges like 7.62x39 or 30-30, so I'm starting to wonder if a short-barreled AR (~10") with a suppressor would be damn near ideal for HD, and a 16-20" upper for small or medium-sized game. I guess the matter in the first scenario is if bullet destabilization or tumbling is conducive to overpenetration in a home defense scenario. I'd imagine that with a ~10" barrel, one could get subsonic loads using even lighter bullets.

Does anybody have an educated opinion on the practicality of such a setup? I have more time with an AR than any other firearm and would like one for HD, but the .300 seems more effective than a 9mm, as well as not needing new mags and other parts, while still being useful on animals and at longer ranges.

My 300 is actually a Fireball.

Are you just saying that your upper wasn't made by the company that holds the trademark to the "Whisper" name? Or is there a difference between the .300/221 and the Fireball that I haven't figured out?

Also, do you use .223 brass when loading for yours?

 

[Bigfoot]

Kind of Blued, before you make the jump it might be a good idea to ask the fellas at the 300 Whisper forum http://www.quarterbore.net/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=27 how often their bullets tumble and how often they stay stable and just pencil through doing very little damage.

There might be some good news for the 300 Whisper though, while there I saw that the expanding bullet project that I mentioned earlier is back on. The guy that bought Wildcat Custom bullets is promising to produce them.

I'm for any cartridge that works. Tumbling, expansion, I don't care as long as it's reliable.

 

[Zak Smith]

so I'm starting to wonder if a short-barreled AR (~10") with a suppressor would be damn near ideal for HD, and a 16-20" upper for small or medium-sized game.

You mean like this?

............... Larger version of above photo.


............... Larger version of above photo.

No point in having a second 16-20" barrel. It would be useless for subsonic loads and there's not enough powder capacity in the .300FB to take advantage of it anyway. From the 10.5", I can shoot the 150gr hunting bullets at 1850+, and the 125's at 2100+.

Are you just saying that your upper wasn't made by the company that holds the trademark to the "Whisper" name? Or is there a difference between the .300/221 and the Fireball that I haven't figured out?

Also, do you use .223 brass when loading for yours?

It's a Noveske barrel. I think there are some differences in Whisper/Fireball dimensions that I haven't really paid attention to, but bottom line, I am using cut down 5.56 brass and it works great. It is, however, a little louder than a subsonic caliber shot from a bolt gun.

 

[Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow]

Both posts went unanswered. Would I be correct in assuming that the pistol bullet/cartridge shooters are interested in thumping live targets and the rifle bullet based guys are interested in shooting paper targets?

No, not at all! You have to HIT your intended target - and that's the vital zone on your game, so the increased practical accuracy that comes from the higher BC bullets is the REASON that a *hunter* would choose them every time over a pistol bullet. It's about ACCURACY, whether hunting or not. Only thing worse than missing game is wounding game, and those are the two things that happen from poor accuracy.

But having said that, now I'll try to answer your specific questions, from my perspective:

Wouldn't a 230gr 45ACP Hydroshock be pretty close to equal to a 220gr SMK loaded backwards? And I would think that since the Hydroshock is designed to expand at subsonic velocities that you would get more "kill" power from it than a backwards flying SMK.

NO! The "killing" power is from wound channel volume. The wound channel volume is based on diameter of permanent and temporary cavity and *penetration*. The .45 acp bullets have terrible SDs & penetration, *among* bullets used on game animals, which can be large, tough, heavy animals. The .45 acp is a bad choice for hunting deer (and larger) and *any* range, and a reallly really really horrible choice at 200 yards, per the original criteria, as amended. Just not enough penetration capability.

Sorry, no time to go to second question right now...