JJFitch Request: 20 steps to achieve sub MOA at 300 yards

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doubleh said:
I just got back to this and found basically the answer I was expecting which wasn't really an answer. I was just looking for 20 steps a person would take to get there as I'm a curious sort.

By the way, Nature Boy, you are a handsome group and the 16 year old is an excellent shot. Keep up the good work.
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Agreed with, on all counts.:thumbup:
 
Varminterror said:
.. it takes $8000 to assemble a rifle to shoot sub-MOA (“or similar”) at 300 yards?...
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I’ve got pix of multiple 3 shot groups from my precision AR that are slightly over dime size at 269 yards with my hand loads. If you want it , I’ll make you a deal and sell it for $7,500. I’ll even throw in 500 rounds of the ammo I used

I’ve got three rifles that shoot in the 1/2” range @ 100 with hand loads. Got rid of the others

Screaming deal of $15,000 on all three, and I’ll throw in all my loading gear and components
 
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It's not the arrow, it's the Indian.

The above is definitely part of the equation on why some feel it's unattainable. One cannot spend enough on hardware to overcome poor software.
 
This is an interesting thread. I will admit that I've spent a lot of money over the years on firearms, optics, accessories, reloading equipment, reloading supplies etc. Sometimes the extra $$$ goes towards variables other than accuracy and precision ... function, consistency, reliability and parts interchangeability for example.
 
I was curious after the other thread. Now disappointed. Back during the Clinton AWB I built a sub MOA AR, at least out to 200 yards, but I expect it wouldn't get substantially worse at 300. All I did was get a fluted free floated barrel, JP single stage match trigger, Magpul PRS stock, mounted a Nikon 3-10 Monarch and tried a wide variety of ammo to get a starting point. I found a Winchester load that was so accurate it wasn't worth handloading to duplicate or improve on it. I guess I spent under $1500 not counting the ammo. I probably could have done it for less if I'd used a bolt gun.
 
My 20-step program:

1. Realize you are good enough.
2. Acquire 8-12 years of metallurgical experience.
3. Shop thrift stores for brass lamps and rub vigorously. I cannot stress the vigorous portion enough.
4. Research rifles in your budget that appeal to you.
5. Research further before concluding your instincts were indeed correct.
6. Travel to your LGS to discuss said rifle and extoll its virtues.
7. Pick up 5 donuts, no more, no less, on way home from Gun store.
8. Check manufacturer’s site for full specifications.
9. Sleep. You need sleep and before so serious a venture sleep is imperative.
10. Dream about that way way out target, a full 300 (!!!) yards away.
11. Wake up refreshed and check wiki for MOA conversion to inches.
12. Return to LGS and inform staff that you intend to purchase said rifle, but not today. This will instill in them the idea that you are a serious tire kicker.
13. This is really step 12: write down MOA to inch conversion on palm to let gun-shop guys know how big your group will be. In inches.
14. Cash your check on payday.
15. Yes it’s donut time again, the number being unimportant but at least 20 as it is well known as the magic threshold.
16. Have a steak dinner. Being payday and with all those carbs you’ll thank me for this crucial step.
17. Trip 3 to the LGS is where no holds are barred. Insist on a box of ammo being thrown in to “sweeten the deal”.
18. Cut carefully with scissors across the plastic to remove scope. Fooled you! No bubble pack scope will do at loooong range. $129 Walmart run for Nikon Pro Staff BDC reticle. DO NOT opt for less at 300 yards.
19. Having pieced together your well reasoned combo, get thee to the range.
20. Proudly declare your trusty rifle will shoot 3/4 MOA (and show conversion in inches to prove you understand MOA) all day long if you do your part.

I like to add a victory lap, having endured all 20 steps and more often than not include pictures of my 25 yar...300 yard groups. Add in the age I began shooting, suggest I am now decades older, remind people it was only a 3-9x scope, and lavish praise on the $16 rings whose brand I cannot divulge.

Should you chose to follow the steps you will no doubt have a rifle you are proud to own and, depending on willpower, a few leftover donuts. Now if 1/2 MOA is your bag then step 21 is precisely 3 words: Boyd’s Stock.
 
Skylerbone said:
My 20-step program:

1. Realize you are good enough.
2. Acquire 8-12 years of metallurgical experience.
3. Shop thrift stores for brass lamps and rub vigorously. I cannot stress the vigorous portion enough.
4. Research rifles in your budget that appeal to you.
5. Research further before concluding your instincts were indeed correct.
6. Travel to your LGS to discuss said rifle and extoll its virtues.
7. Pick up 5 donuts, no more, no less, on way home from Gun store.
8. Check manufacturer’s site for full specifications.
9. Sleep. You need sleep and before so serious a venture sleep is imperative.
10. Dream about that way way out target, a full 300 (!!!) yards away.
11. Wake up refreshed and check wiki for MOA conversion to inches.
12. Return to LGS and inform staff that you intend to purchase said rifle, but not today. This will instill in them the idea that you are a serious tire kicker.
13. This is really step 12: write down MOA to inch conversion on palm to let gun-shop guys know how big your group will be. In inches.
14. Cash your check on payday.
15. Yes it’s donut time again, the number being unimportant but at least 20 as it is well known as the magic threshold.
16. Have a steak dinner. Being payday and with all those carbs you’ll thank me for this crucial step.
17. Trip 3 to the LGS is where no holds are barred. Insist on a box of ammo being thrown in to “sweeten the deal”.
18. Cut carefully with scissors across the plastic to remove scope. Fooled you! No bubble pack scope will do at loooong range. $129 Walmart run for Nikon Pro Staff BDC reticle. DO NOT opt for less at 300 yards.
19. Having pieced together your well reasoned combo, get thee to the range.
20. Proudly declare your trusty rifle will shoot 3/4 MOA (and show conversion in inches to prove you understand MOA) all day long if you do your part.

I like to add a victory lap, having endured all 20 steps and more often than not include pictures of my 25 yar...300 yard groups. Add in the age I began shooting, suggest I am now decades older, remind people it was only a 3-9x scope, and lavish praise on the $16 rings whose brand I cannot divulge.

Should you chose to follow the steps you will no doubt have a rifle you are proud to own and, depending on willpower, a few leftover donuts. Now if 1/2 MOA is your bag then step 21 is precisely 3 words: Boyd’s Stock.
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You need this in there somewhere

 
horsey300 said:
Didn't spend enough on load workup then I fear, however, I feel like I need to start having discussions with the Mrs over negotiations regarding acquisitions of some new stick slingers......
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Yeah, I do need to re-vist my loads I'm having stability issues. But that's what one gets when one cheaps out and uses seconds (that didn't come from noslers).
I also seem to have a loose optics mount, or some other mechanical malfunction, cause even with so, so ammo, I'd expect better than that.


I'm dumb, bored, and have credit. So it's very likely I'm buying another gun, or buying another bow in the near future. Either way I'll try shoot a group at 300 next time we go to Maunakea.
 
JJFitch said:
Any bolt gun should print sub 1" at 100 yards or the lack of sales will end that model!

The deal breaker here is the 300 yard reference. The 22 inch barrel in a decent bolt gun makes the difference here.
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I've never had the opportunity to shoot at 300 yards. My backyard range goes to 100 yards. I haven't found a really big difference between 25, 50, and 100 yards.

So what I'm wondering is, what comes into play that makes 300 yards so much different from 100?
 
23tony said:
So what I'm wondering is, what comes into play that makes 300 yards so much different from 100?
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For most modern bottleneck cartridges with what we come to expect of velocity from them (example ~2650fps or faster) and any expected bullet with respectable ballistic coefficient (say, over .35G1), it almost always comes down to the shooter and the glass.

For me, wind variability influence is exceptionally minor at both 100 and 300. If a shooter isn’t holding for wind at all, he might still unwittingly sneak in a 100yrd group under 1”, and then variability in the wind at 300 might add enough to spread his group if he’s not holding at all. But if a guy has a relatively calm day and watches the wind at all, it’s pretty easy to nullify wind influence at 300. 1mph wind error at 300yrds for my 6.5 Grendel, for example, is .2MOA drift (less than 1 click), while it’s .08MOA at 100 (a bit less than 1/3 of a click). When shooting on a 2-4mph day, that extra ~.12MOA shouldn’t make or break any rifle shooting less than .9moa. Considering most rifles can be coaxed to shoot around .6-.8moa, at least for 3-5 shots, that wind error isn’t biting us in the ass yet at 300. 500-600+, absolutely. But THIS is why several of us mentioned above “300 isn’t that far.”

If a guy shoots a sub-MOA group target at 100 at max magnification then shoots the same size target at 300 with the same max mag, it’s not surprising when groups open up. Triple the zoom or triple the target size and things are back in alignment.

Otherwise, I really believe most guys shoot worse at 300 than they do at 100 because someone told them 300 is farther.
 
23tony said:
what comes into play that makes 300 yards so much different from 100?
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1KPerDay said:
Distance and wind.
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Yep, and the fact that so many people think wind doesn't move bullets "up close", which is hogwash.

90% of Benchrest at 100/200 yards is reading the wind.

But for the question at hand, I don't see that as a factor, but instead is the gun capable.
 
We are usually pretty efficient in attaining our goals around here, and dumb luck plays a major part in that sometimes. However here was our path to Sub moa at 300 yds:
1. Obtain a Remington 700 and Later a Savage 10 fp.
2. Order and screw on a Shilen Select Match heavy profile stainless barrel.
3. Glass bed in a quality stock.
4. Eliminate all creep and lighten the trigger.
5. Mount a quality 14 power scope.
6. Shoot some rounds to get on paper
7. Neck size the brass and reload with match grade bullets.
 
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