.45 long Colt for deer from a rifle - yes or no?

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Risky buisness said:
The short answer is yes.
Using Elmer Keith's formula for calculating the effectiveness of cartridges can be used here to illuminate why the long answer is still yes.
Velocity x grain weight÷7000
I use 260 grain Keith style, with enough 296 or 2400 to roll them out 1800+ fps resulting in a 68
Comparing that to a 30WCF 170 at 2200 produces 54.
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I think you're referring to TKO, which is John Taylor's method.

TKO = (weight(gr) x fps x diameter) / 7000

Which was never intended to be used to compare small bores to big bores.


js8588 said:
The HSM 325 grain Bear Load is my favorite round to shoot in my Ruger Redhawk. The short answer is ANY Marlin, Rossi, or (modern) Henry could safely shoot it. The question is, can they feed it or stabilize it?

The Marlins so far had a rifling twist too slow to shoot the 300+ grain loadings with any accuracy. I suspect Ruger will change that.

The Rossis can't feed those longer bullets (unless you got one of the 454 Casull versions which will feed & shoot them just fine).

I've yet to see a conclusive answer on the Henrys. The action is plenty strong, and the barrel twist (1:16) is fast enough to stabilize the heavy 325s. Will it feed them? I don't know.
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I agree. Strength is not the limitation. Bullet and overall cartridge length as it relates to twist rate and the feed mechanism is the limitation.
 
js8588 said:
The HSM 325 grain Bear Load is my favorite round to shoot in my Ruger Redhawk. The short answer is ANY Marlin, Rossi, or (modern) Henry could safely shoot it. The question is, can they feed it or stabilize it?

The Marlins so far had a rifling twist too slow to shoot the 300+ grain loadings with any accuracy. I suspect Ruger will change that.

The Rossis can't feed those longer bullets (unless you got one of the 454 Casull versions which will feed & shoot them just fine).

I've yet to see a conclusive answer on the Henrys. The action is plenty strong, and the barrel twist (1:16) is fast enough to stabilize the heavy 325s. Will it feed them? I don't know.
Click to expand...

Yes, maybe Marlin via Ruger will address the twist rate because it is a perfect partner to their Blackhawk, sell them as a matched set!

If the Henry will feed them that would casue me to rethink my meh attitude to Henry. I know the Marlins will feed them but I was not considering the twist.

Just as an aside, I have a (REM) Guide Gun .45-70. With all of the over length super large meplat ammo/bullets (HSM, BB, G), I burnish the edge of the meplat on steel to smooth feeding. My rifle feeds them 99 out of 100 without a hick-up but burnishing the edges it goes to 100%. Might need the same thing on the .45LC with the big, square bullets. I love the Marlin .45-70, I cannot think of a (easy) carry rifle that can put that much lead on target as fast, but a .45LC lever could run a close second with chunky 325 grain bullets smoking downrange. Kill a horse or a poor little bambi, I have little doubt it would knock a brown or a buffalo on it's butt.
 
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DocRock said:
I have stated fact. Prove me wrong.
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You have done nothing but state what you CLAIM to be fact. Without any proof, I might add. Nothing is a "fact" unless there is evidence to support it. Apparently you have none. Have a nice day......
 
tark said:
You have done nothing but state what you CLAIM to be fact. Without any proof, I might add. Nothing is a "fact" unless there is evidence to support it. Apparently you have none. Have a nice day......
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I have stated a fact. If you wish to counter that fact, show me the Army documents that state the pistol they were soliciting must not be able to disable a horse at 100 yards.
 
CraigC said:
I think you're referring to TKO, which is John Taylor's method.

TKO = (weight(gr) x fps x diameter) / 7000

Which was never intended to be used to compare small bores to big bores.



I agree. Strength is not the limitation. Bullet and overall cartridge length as it relates to twist rate and the feed mechanism is the limitation.
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In actuality, I was referring to Keith's expedited method referred to by him as KS, or killing scale, Keith, who if you didnt know, created this previously to Taylor's evolution of the scale that Keith started earlier that was vague enough, relying on the stated variables to reach A number for initial comparison.
 
CraigC said:
I think you're referring to TKO, which is John Taylor's method.
Click to expand...

Velocity * grain weight / 7000 is simply momentum (with retained units only common to firearm ballistics, as any other science does the conversions to get back to more common units for momentum). For some reason we use P for momentum, but P = M * V, and dealing in lbm ft/sec seems to be much more palatable scale than 7000x larger when using grain ft/sec, so folks are happy with weight * velocity /7000. I don’t recall Keith claiming momentum as his own devised metric, but we can be sure it was not his idea, as Rene Descartes came up with it about 300yrs before Keith.

TKO is momentum * diameter (aka weight * velocity * diameter / 7000), as Pondoro favored the idea of frontal surface as advantageous. Of course, this leaves us with lbm ft in/sec, which is kind of a silly combination of units, even if, again, the resulting scale is palatable.

At least both momentum and TKO, which is rooted in momentum, have the advantage over Kinetic Energy that momentum is conserved in inelastic collisions.... far better metrics of potential work than KE.
 
:D
DocRock said:
I have stated a fact. If you wish to counter that fact, show me the Army documents that state the pistol they were soliciting must not be able to disable a horse at 100 yards.
Click to expand...
Read post 78 again. Let it sink in this time. Again, have a nice day......:D
 
tark said:
:D
Read post 78 again. Let it sink in this time. Again, have a nice day......:D
Click to expand...

So, you have nothing. Unless you have evidence to support your claim that the Army did not require the SAA to be suitable for cavalry use against horses then the evidence I have provided stands. Have a nice day.
 
DocRock said:
So, you have nothing. Unless you have evidence to support your claim that the Army did not require the SAA to be suitable for cavalry use against horses then the evidence I have provided stands. Have a nice day.
Click to expand...
You are the one who made a claim. I asked you to show any evidence supporting that claim. You are unable to show any.

I think this argument is done, and I am sure the moderator would agree. Have a nice day, and a Merry Christmas. I'm out of here.
 
@tark I’ve already given you one article. There are many more. Just show me your evidence that the Army didn’t specify that the revolver and cartridge in the 1872 revolver trials. Just show us.
 
Screwing up a horse as to be unusable in battle is not the same as ethically killing a game animal.

That argument is nothing but silly.

.357 mag, .44 mag and yes, even .45 Colt....

With proper loads and used within limits makes for summer sausage.
 
Let's see if I understand what a few have said. The .45 colt from a handgun has been used to kill very large bears. But the same round from a levergun, with it's higher velocity isn't suitable for deer. Okay, can I have some of what you are smoking.
 
jeepnik said:
Let's see if I understand what a few have said. The .45 colt from a handgun has been used to kill very large bears. But the same round from a levergun, with it's higher velocity isn't suitable for deer. Okay, can I have some of what you are smoking.
Click to expand...

No, not me - gun writers more knowledgeable than I, and some here, have said that it is marginal and best left for other purposes. Chuck Hawks (I think I got his name right) is one. Some have actually said that using a .45 long colt for deer is irresponsible to the point of being immoral... Yet, many, as we also read here, say it is not only fine but in fact, a good choice. I haven't engaged in caliber wars, you know the 9mm vs. 45 auto thing, since I was young - and then it was great fun to talk about. But now, having acquired an absolutely lovely 1894 Marlin Cowboy in .45 Colt I just really wanted to get more opinions on it suitability for use other than as a range or cowboy competition rifle. I respect the differences of others here and their knowledge - that is why I asked the question. The reply I liked the most came from a local gun dealer when I asked him the same question. He answered that it was suitable "in the hands of an experienced and knowledgeable shooter" but otherwise no! He dignified the use of the round but really also said not to use it if you are not an expert.
 
Hokkmike said:
No, not me - gun writers more knowledgeable than I, and some here, have said that it is marginal and best left for other purposes. Chuck Hawks (I think I got his name right) is one. Some have actually said that using a .45 long colt for deer is irresponsible to the point of being immoral... Yet, many, as we also read here, say it is not only fine but in fact, a good choice. I haven't engaged in caliber wars, you know the 9mm vs. 45 auto thing, since I was young - and then it was great fun to talk about. But now, having acquired an absolutely lovely 1894 Marlin Cowboy in .45 Colt I just really wanted to get more opinions on it suitability for use other than as a range or cowboy competition rifle. I respect the differences of others here and their knowledge - that is why I asked the question. The reply I liked the most came from a local gun dealer when I asked him the same question. He answered that it was suitable "in the hands of an experienced and knowledgeable shooter" but otherwise no! He dignified the use of the round but really also said not to use it if you are not an expert.
Click to expand...

It's funny a properly loaded 45 colt is more potent than most .44 mag rounds recommended for hunting. I guess some deer are now wearing body armor. Perhaps we all need .50 BMG as we know nothing less will reliably kill a deer.
 
Took a doe with a SAA 5.5” barrel with double tap Ammo 255gr Keith hardcast SWC at 25yrds. First time using a revolver. Didn’t need a hot load or ruger only load. Complete pass through and went through a 3” tree behind it clean through.

Out of a lever gun, I wouldn’t imagine any issue. You could load hotter for the rifle. I wasn’t a fan of Hornady leverevolution. But double tap and buffalo bore have some good solid stock Ammo if you don’t reload. I’ve got a Winchester 94 I plan on taking out soon for deer. Go for it, it’s a great pairing. Happy hunting!
 
Beware rhetoric about handgun hunting from rifle shooters who still rely on kinetic energy to tell them everything. Chuck Hawks has probably never killed a thing with a handgun. Standard pressure .45Colt with a good bullet will kill any deer that walks deader than fried chicken. With "Ruger only" loads (or heavier), all the African Big Six are fair game.
 
Never took a deer in our Westsylvania woods with anything but a PCC, and sometimes just the pistol. It was a 16" Marlin 94 in .44Mag most of the time; @1600'sec/240JHP. Never lost a deer, and most were DRT.
What will likely be my last deer (the old camp, and hunters, are now gone; just don't get excited about it anymore) was taken with a 16" Winchester .45, , @ 1100'sec/255 RNL, and that doe was dead in a heap. That load works on skunks, too...no, don't ask.
We have dangling bowling pins at our new camp, and even my cowboy level .45 loads knock the daylights out of them. Big boolits make a difference.
BTW, as others have noted, MARK your .45 loads if there is anything weaker in the house. I've a Schofield that wouldn't like the hotter loads. May go to Canada next summer, and I'll load some bear stoppers.
Moon
 
As you saw in my earlier post to this thread I took a buck with an 1873 Winchester in 45 Colt with Cowboy loads. The buck went 75 yards and piled up same as I’ve seen many times with other common “deer rifles”. The following year I took a buck with an 1885 Low Wall chambered in 44 mag using a fairly hot load with a Honady XTP 240 Gr hp. that is generally accepted as a very good round for deer. Same bullet placement with identical results for what it’s worth. The year prior to the 1873 I took a buck with a 4”S&W 629. Same load as I used in the 1885 and the deer took about 3 steps and piled up. Why the big differences in these results? Who knows. But I’d have to say a 45 Colt or similar caliber that is well placed inside reasonable distance is entirely adequate for deer sized game. C00B3AD7-4822-4831-8FC4-2B0DFB1C0BA3.jpeg 478B7ADF-B756-4A81-AA5A-DBDE96BD1206.jpeg
 
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Grayrock said:
Care to elaborate? I am intrigued
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We have discarded bowling pins from our pin shoots at the Club. Just put in an eye hook, use stiff wire, and dangle them from a limb or 2x4...they dance pretty nice with .45 Colt, or 5.56, but the Colt is more fun. And they will take an amazing amount of abuse before self destructing, with no chance of splashback.
Steve M, PA used to have a two day does season after buck ended, and the whole camp hunted doe with .44 revolvers. The same load that exited the carbine at 1600 came out of a 6" 629 at 1400; the load killed deer deader' n' Dillinger. :)
Back to the .45; wish I'd tried it more often for game.
Just added a tang sight to a 16" R92 in that caliber.
Moon
ETA- nice you got a buck with your revolver!
M
 
You can load a 45 colt to be more powerful than a 44 magnum

When I was about 14 or 15 years old I was evisorated for saying that at my trap club.
Old guy had no idea what my Anaconda was capable of.

It will do more and not even loaded to 36,000 PSI of the 44 mag.
 
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