Out of state property owner

Darth-Vang · Mar 11, 2021

Okay so if I were to say become a out of state property owner. May I carry either conceal or openly, say in the state of california? I know there’s magazine capacity restrictions. Would I still need a license to carry on my property even though I am out of state property owner of the of the land?

danez71 · Mar 12, 2021

As far as CA, we probably need more info.

For example, are you talking track housing with close neighbors in Los Angeles or desert property with far away neighbors?

Generally, you can inside your home and less generally speaking, on your property. However, about 2 yrs ago, a guy got arrested a few street down the hill from me. What was reported is that he was on his front yard carrying around a rifle and neighbors called PD (apparently not the 1st time). By the time PD got there, he was inside his house a didn't feel the need to come out and talk.... SWAT showed up after that.

With out more detail, I think it would be impossible to answer with any kind of legal citing to support. State, County and City laws will apply.

Darth-Vang · Mar 12, 2021

danez71 said:
As far as CA, we probably need more info.

For example, are you talking track housing with close neighbors in Los Angeles or desert property with far away neighbors?

Generally, you can inside your home and less generally speaking, on your property. However, about 2 yrs ago, a guy got arrested a few street down the hill from me. What was reported is that he was on his front yard carrying around a rifle and neighbors called PD (apparently not the 1st time). By the time PD got there, he was inside his house a didn't feel the need to come out and talk.... SWAT showed up after that.

With out more detail, I think it would be impossible to answer with any kind of legal citing to support. State, County and City laws will apply.

It won’t be in the cities. It’ll be high up in the mountains close to the border of Nevada. Just dirt and trees. Though there is a little shed where I’ll be sleeping at. Basically far from civilization.

CapnMac · Mar 12, 2021

Hmm, I'm trying to find a good cite (since this is Legal), but, generally, if one is residing in a State, one i meant to abide by and obey the laws of that State.

One's residence in a given State is not an enclave of another State, it's simple property not an embassy.

27 CFR 478.11 gives us this:

State of residence. The State in which an individual resides. An individual resides in a State if he or she is present in a State with the intention of making a home in that State. If an individual is on active duty as a member of the Armed Forces, the individual's State of residence is the State in which his or her permanent duty station is located, as stated in 18 U.S.C. 921(b).

Dudedog · Mar 12, 2021

May I carry either conceal or openly, say in the state of california?

No open carry in CA, and last time I checked we don't honor anyone else's CCW permits.

You on your property is different than in public but I would need to search to verify what is ok, and what rules apply.

https://www.handgunlaw.us/states/california.pdf

Mod Frank Ettin is in CA and a lawyer, maybe he will chime in and can probably cite the laws/code without having to dig them up.

The song from the Beverly Hillbillies is wrong

Come and listen to a story 'bout a man named Jed
Poor mountaineer barely kept his family fed
Then one day he was shooting for some food,
And up through the ground come a bubbling crude
(Oil that is, black gold, Texas tea)
Well the first thing you know old Jed's a millionaire
Kin folk said Jed move away from there
Said California is the place you oughta be
So they loaded up the truck and they moved to Beverly
(Hills that is, swimming pools, movie stars)
Well now it's time to say goodbye to Jed and all his kin
They would like to… More

California is not the place you oughta be if you want to own and carry guns....

rkittine · Mar 12, 2021

If you live in New York or own in New York and want to have a handgun you need to have a pistol permit. Getting one for a second residence is not easy. I have a residence on Long Island and one in Manhattan and I have to have two permits. With the Sullivan Act, I would not suggest that you bring a handgun to New York if you do not have a permit, whether you own property here or not.

Bob

Frank Ettin · Mar 12, 2021

Darth-Vang said:
...Would I still need a license to carry on my property even though I am out of state property owner of the of the land?

In general in California one may carry a gun on private property (with the permission of the owner), BUT "private property" here doesn't mean what you think it means.

Property is private property for this purpose only if it is not freely accessible to members of the public, for example, an unfenced front yard. So one would be okay inside his house. But he'd not be okay in his yard unless there was a physical barrier that prevented a passerby from wandering onto the property (and no, it doesn't matter that the passerby would be trespassing).

danez71 · Mar 13, 2021

Frank Ettin said:
In general in California one may carry a gun on private property (with the permission of the owner), BUT "private property" here doesn't mean what you think it means.

Property is private property for this purpose only if it is not freely accessible to members of the public, for example, an unfenced front yard. So one would be okay inside his house. But he'd not be okay in his yard unless there was a physical barrier that prevented a passerby from wandering onto the property (and no, it doesn't matter that the passerby would be trespassing).

Frank, I remember something related to population density being a factor but don't remember exactly how.

I think it came about with CA stating in court they weren't completely banning because you still can in areas with less than X population density.

To the OP, I would also suggest visiting calguns.net for the resources. Thier wiki page (linked on their site) may have the details or point to them.

I'm in the 7th inning of a multi state relocation and dont have time to research more.

RickD427 · Mar 13, 2021

danez71 said:
Frank, I remember something related to population density being a factor but don't remember exactly how.

I think it came about with CA stating in court they weren't completely banning because you still can in areas with less than X population density.

To the OP, I would also suggest visiting calguns.net for the resources. Thier wiki page (linked on their site) may have the details or point to them.

I'm in the 7th inning of a multi state relocation and dont have time to research more.

Danez,

You may be thinking of Penal Code section 26155(b)(2) which permits Sheriffs in counties with less than 200,000 residents to issue "Open Carry" permits that are valid within the county only. That's the only carry provision in California law that I'm aware of where there is a population provision.

But that doesn't apply to the issue that Frank raised. California law makes a big distinction between "Private Property", "Privately Owned Property", "Public Property", and "Publicly Owned Property." Far too many folks only think in only two of those categories when there are really four to be considered. People often get into trouble in cases where "Privately Owned Property" is accessible to the public, as in Frank's example.

Several years ago, a member of the Calgun's site was convicted for improperly possessing a firearm on his front porch (I don't recall if the facts were concealed carry, or open carry, but the point here is the same in either case). The porch was certainly "Privately Owned Property", but it was also a place that the public could easily access. The court found that the porch was "Public" (even though it was privately owned).

I often had to explain this distinction during my working days with the Sheriff's Office (most often in disputes involving repossessions). I was fond of the "Girl Scout" analogy. If the place is one where the Girl Scout could go to sell her cookies, then it's probably gonna be held to be a "Public" place, regardless of who owns it.

GBExpat · Mar 13, 2021

Darth-Vang · Mar 13, 2021

RickD427 said:
Danez,

You may be thinking of Penal Code section 26155(b)(2) which permits Sheriffs in counties with less than 200,000 residents to issue "Open Carry" permits that are valid within the county only. That's the only carry provision in California law that I'm aware of where there is a population provision.

But that doesn't apply to the issue that Frank raised. California law makes a big distinction between "Private Property", "Privately Owned Property", "Public Property", and "Publicly Owned Property." Far too many folks only think in only two of those categories when there are really four to be considered. People often get into trouble in cases where "Privately Owned Property" is accessible to the public, as in Frank's example.

Several years ago, a member of the Calgun's site was convicted for improperly possessing a firearm on his front porch (I don't recall if the facts were concealed carry, or open carry, but the point here is the same in either case). The porch was certainly "Privately Owned Property", but it was also a place that the public could easily access. The court found that the porch was "Public" (even though it was privately owned).

I often had to explain this distinction during my working days with the Sheriff's Office (most often in disputes involving repossessions). I was fond of the "Girl Scout" analogy. If the place is one where the Girl Scout could go to sell her cookies, then it's probably gonna be held to be a "Public" place, regardless of who owns it.

Even if I have a “No trespassing” sign put up with no barrier on the property I’d still be at the no go? And if the circumstances of setting up a barrier is practically impossible and or not feasible since it’s way high up in the mountains? Hmmm....

Frank Ettin · Mar 13, 2021

Darth-Vang said:
Even if I have a “No trespassing” sign put up with no barrier on the property I’d still be at the no go? And if the circumstances of setting up a barrier is practically impossible and or not feasible since it’s way high up in the mountains? Hmmm....

Based on applicable case law there's no reason to believe that a mere "no trespassing" sign would be sufficient.

RickD427 · Mar 13, 2021

Darth-Vang said:
Even if I have a “No trespassing” sign put up with no barrier on the property I’d still be at the no go? And if the circumstances of setting up a barrier is practically impossible and or not feasible since it’s way high up in the mountains? Hmmm....

Please see Frank's posting above.

Additionally, part of the problem with the concept of "Trespassing" is that the term doesn't mean what a lot folks think that it means (please check out California's Penal Code section 602). The simple act of being on someone else's privately owned property contrary to the desires of the owner is not a "Trespass" under California's criminal statutes (and regardless of how the same term is used in common law, or in civil lawsuits).

Darth-Vang · Mar 13, 2021

Cali really is “wild.”

danez71 · Mar 13, 2021

RickD427 said:
Danez,

You may be thinking of...... (snip)

Yes, I believe that's what I was vaguely remembering.

Thank You and @Frank Ettin for your efforts clarifying. Much appreciated.

RickD427 · Mar 13, 2021

Darth-Vang said:
Cali really is “wild.”

Yup, You're right. The first thing that I did when I retired was to flee from the state.

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