Names of guns that were designed for steel casings

The Germans kicked it off with the MG-42, the StG44, etc. that still lives on in the steel case shooting G-3 series.
The Russians took it up with the SKS-45, AK series, PKM series, Makarov and PM pistol series, and all Russian Issue small arms, in general service today.

I'm not aware of any particular firearm designed specifically around steel case ammunition but I could be wrong. I am aware that there are some firearms more tolerant of steel case loads than others.

For example I have a 60 year old SKS that loves the stuff, and anything else I throw at it, but my SKS paratrooper model will tolerate them only occasionally. My AR also shoots them w/o a hiccup. My Norinco 9mm can't get through a magazine without a FTF or something.

Russian ones.

The only gun I can think of that was actually designed to use steel cases
(due to it's mode of operation) was the FAMAS.

JT

The Germans developed satisfactory steel cased ammo in the 1930's.
German standard issue 8x33mm kurtz was all in steel cases.
The original MP-42 (H), the first in a series that led to the StG-44, was the first to use the 8x33mm. The case dimensions of the ammo was designed with a steeper taper because steel was the material the designers at Hanel knew was going to be used as standard production. They made sure it would work well with them.
The MG-42 was designed, specifically, to digest steel cased ammo with ease, as well.

It would seem all Eastern bloc arms were designed to be used with steel ammo.

Or maybe they designed the steel ammo to work in their guns.

Maybe raw materials had somethin' ta' do with it?
just a thought...

all the WW2 stuff was compatible, in nearly every country. Steel case isn't all that special, its obturation properties are slightly poorer than brass, but that's about it. You lower the pressure slightly, and accept they will run dirtier due to the blow by of the weaker seal, and work around it.

I have never seen a firearm that has an issue with good steel ammo. A decade of really bad low pressure .223 steel case dominating the market led to the erroneous belief that the AR couldn't handle it, but that was an issue of extreme low pressure, and significant blow by fouling the chamber.

As someone who had AR's that could not handle the steel case, I can tell you that pulling the bullet, putting in a starting load of US made powder and putting the bullet back in resulting in perfect function of the pickiest AR's.

I have found steel cases from Tula .308 have neck tension issues after 3 reloads (4 firings).

I have successfully reloaded steel case .308 and 223, and they work fine.

I would only be concerned about the HK fluted stuff, but people don't seem to have issues with that.

In addition to the above - which I really haven't studied - the owner's manual with the CZ 427 in 7.62x39mm claims the rifle is designed to 'handle' steel cased ammo. I have no idea how that works.
I also have a CZ (can't remember what model) in 6.5x55mm. Owner's manual says nothing about steel cased ammo. Then again, I've never heard of steel cased 6.5x55mm.

The XM235, XM234, and XM233



The M242, (and all 25mm x 137 cannon)


AK-74
(you know what that looks like.)

The ammunition for these was never available in anything other than steel cases.

The AK-47, SKS, FAMAS, etc were really designed with the use of brass cased ammunition in mind.

The MG-42 was designed for brass cased ammunition. Development started in 1938, and was mostly completed by 1939. By 1941 a pre-production batch designated MG-39/41 were field tested in mid 1941 and full scale product starteding in 1942.

CZ PCR, one of mine.

Speaking of Czech, my VZ-58 rifle and various imported AKMs.
* Imported by--but Not designed, by Century. New guys/gals, please realize the very stark contrast in quality and steel hardness.

The Makarov handguns, manufactured in the Soviet Union, "East" Germany, Bulgaria & the "PR of China", along with other guns 'chambered' in 9x18 Mak.:, i,e, Polish P-64, P-83, the Hungarian guns, and other Czech handguns such as the CZ-82/83, probably all of the 75 and 85 series.

I don't know the "guns" as much as the cartridges. As a general rule, the cartridge is designed before the gun.

Americans have been blessed to live in a country with vast natural resources, there are metals we don't have, such as nickel and titanium, (and rare earths). The US has/had copper and so America used copper in making expensive brass cartridge cases. One other blessing, it has been a while since large portions of this Nation were occupied by foreign invaders. Both Russia and Germany experienced this during WW2. Take a look at this, from a WW2 book, about the number of soldiers and equipment Russia lost in the first year of the German invasion.




add into that the land, rail lines, mines, factories, that were also off limits, because the nasty Germans took them too, and you can see that Russia was really over a resource barrel. Incidentally, these numbers on the picture, late in the war, I will bet the German losses looked something like that.

The Germans were over the resource barrel very early and needed to conquer land to get the resources necessary to continue a war time production. I do know that in WW1 German was stripping France and Belgium of all the copper and brass that it could find. In occupied Belgium, civilians had to provide a complete list of household items. The Germans than took that list, knocked on the door of Belgium household and conducted an "inventory inspection". Items not on the list were confiscated as contraband. That also included the items buried in the Garden. You think the Germans did not catch on to that early in the war? Then, after all those copper pans and brass items were taken, the Germans then came in and took copper/brass items on the list! Worthless war time money was given as compensation. It was a deliberate and well planned campaign to strip occupied areas of everything of value to the German war effort. And yet, even taking all the brass, copper, bronze they could, the Germans never had enough for cartridges and artillery shells.

So it was, during WW1, the Germans made the first steel case 8 X 57 mm Mauser cases. Which they found, they had to coat the steel case ammunition with wax. Wax works very well as a lubricant, under the temperatures and pressures of combustion the stuff melts and becomes a liquid. Unwaxed 8mm ammunition had a propensity to stick in the chamber. From Dieter Storz's book: Rifle & Carbine 98: M98 Firearms of the German Army from 1898 to 1918, https://www.amazon.com/Rifle-Carbine-98-Firearms-German/dp/390252605X one company made 26 billion “iron case” 8 X 57 Mauser ammunition during WW1. Dieter Storz has an extensive chapter on the "iron case" 8 mm Mauser cases. Iron was not used to make cartridge cases, the book is translated from German and translators can miss subtleties.

I have no doubt the Russian designers of the 7.62 X 39 well understood the scarcity of strategic materials during a war and that is why the 7.62 X 39 round was designed with steel as the case material. Brass case 7.62 x 39 exists, because brass is still the best material to make cartridge cases, but I have seen much more military steel case than I can recall any military brass case. I am sure someone has a few brass military rounds.

Incidentally, the Chinese are pretty smart people, and they have put their best designers to make really good military cartridges and rifles. This is an example





This round has a lot of taper, operates in the lower 40 kpsia range (which is just great as high pressures causes more problems than it cures) and has a thick rim. No doubt the Chinese examined the expansion and contraction of the case in the chamber, decided on an optimum clearance as the pressure curve dropped during the residual blowback period, and carefully determined case hardness necessary to ensure proper contraction clearance. The 5.56 case, even with brass as a material, drags during extraction. This is called "extractor lift", where the bolt retracts, but the case stays in the chamber. Surely Chinese Production Engineers were brought in to ensure that a steel case of that dimensions and hardness requirements could be made with state of the art production equipment and facilities.

As an example of ignoring production issues, the early 5.56 cartridge, the pressure curve requirements were tighter than state of the art gunpowder production technology could hold. The powder manufacturer had to make, lets say, 10 lots of powder, go out and sample which lots could meet the pressure curve tolerances, and scrap the non conforming lots. Might be five, might be all 10! Since meeting the pressure curve requirements was only by chance, this is just one example of what happens when a wildcat is adopted as a military round. Which, incidentally, the 223 Remington was. And that is why so many have had issues with steel case 223, the drag is even worse.

When a country go's over from one material to another in manufacture, its not always an overnight process.
In the 1930's the Germans manufacturers added an a "S' for stahl, or steel case on the packaging for service issued ammo. Instead of the earlier
powdered wax, a type of lacquer was found to be a durable protective for the steel case. The Germans were committed to steel cases well before the beginnings of hostility's. They certainly made sure the guns they were creating were to use steel cases without a problem.
Steel cases slowly replaced Brass in the extensive supply system.
At the start of the war, 1939, the Germans had literally billions of rounds of 8mm ammo in inventory and almost half as much in steel cased ammo.
and after some success, added Czeck , Yugoslavian and Polish 8mm brass cased ammo to this inventory.
By 1943, steel cased ammo being manufactured for issue was almost 100% for the Germans.

Shortly after the war, the Soviets had the Germans manufacture 7.62x43 in steel cases, the direct parent of the 7.62x39.
These were for the original SKS-45
They had the same overall length, and the case was later shortend

The US got steel cased 5.56mm all worked out in the early 1970s, never implemented due to cost of copper dropping, expected cost to retool ammunition production (both GOCO and contracted), and push-back from commercial suppliers.

"Product Improvement Test of Cartridges, 5.56mm Assembled with Steel Cartridge Cases" (March 1970) has this to say about steel cases:

There were no deficiencies found during the test. There was one shortcoming found: the susceptibility of the test cartridges to rust. There were 47 incidents of split cases out of 21,642 steel-cased rounds fired for a 0.22% rate of incidents during testing. However, these split cases did not adversely affect the operation of the weapons. There were 71 malfunctions with weapons firing control cartridges [brass cases] and 53 malfunctions with weapons firing test cartridges [steel cases]. All malfunctions, with the exception of 3, were either weapon- or magazine-caused. The 3 exceptions were cartridge caused malfunctions. Two of the cartridge-caused malfunctions were with control cartridges [brass cases], and one with test cartridge[steel case].

So, after nearly 22,000 rounds of steel cased 5.56mm (M193 and M196 equivalent), there was one cartridge case induced malfunction, and this was half of the rate shown by brass cartridge cases.

EDIT: You might note that places that make copious use of steel cases are places that have a very small civilian ammunition market. In France, the one "free-world" military that uses steel 5.56mm and 7.62mm, it is illegal to own firearms in "military" calibers, so who cares if French 5.56mm and 7.62mm, both classed as "military", are not really reloadable.

EDIT, EDIT: It should also be noted that one of the stated reasons why 6mm x 45 SAW, which was going to be steel case-only, was dropped was resistance from commercial supplier to produce the round, as they felt a steel cartridge case would be commercially non-viable.

There is/was a lot of large artillery that utilize a steel case. I know our local (now closed) steel mill made steel artillery cases during WW2.

Darth-Vang said:

What are the names of guns out there that were specifically designed for steel casings? Curious to know.

Click to expand...

The 1867 Slyvester Howard Roper Revolving Shotgun.
Fires a percussion cap fired steel cartridge case.








Note: Roper invented the first shotgun choke, short tubes that could be threaded onto, or removed from, the outside of the shotgun barrel to vary the shot spread to suit different targets and ranges.

The Gatling gun was a hand-crank-operated weapon with 6 barrels revolving around a central shaft. The cartridges were fed to the gun by gravity through a hopper mounted on the top of the gun. 6 cam-operated bolts alternately wedged, fired, and dropped the bullets, which were contained in steel chambers. Gatling used the 6 barrels to partially cool the gun during firing. Since the gun was capable of firing 600 rounds a minute, each barrel fired 100 rounds per minute


Gattling used paper cartridges and steel chargers that acted as firing chambers.

Union Repeating Gun .58 Machined Steel Cartridge/Chamber
The chargers were primed with percussion caps on nipples and the bolts acted as strikers to fire the caps. The chargers were supported during combustion by a cylindrical piece that housed the striker. A hopper gravity feed similar to that of the Ager was also used.the November 1862 weapons employed a steel container with a percussion cap on the end and paper cartridges for the charge.
The gun had a number of problems, however. The bores were tapered, and often the barrels and chambers did not exactly align, affecting accuracy and velocity.The chamber system itself, in which a paper cartridge was contained inside a capped steel chamber, was both expensive and fragile. While the gun showed much promise and fired the standard .58-caliber ammunition, it had so many drawbacks and was so radical in both design and purpose that Gatling was unable to interest the U.S. government.
Soon after the guns were completed by McWhinny, Rindge & Co., Gatling decided to use copper in place of paper in the cartridge cases. These metal cartridges were rim fire, which necessitated the placing of two projections on the bolt head to strike the rim-fire primer. The striker served both as firing pin and as a hammer while eliminating the use of the percussion cap on a nipple. In view of these modifications the gun can be classified correctly as type II of the 1862 model.

Billinghurst Requa Battery Gun. Cal. .50, Model 1862

This gun had 25 barrels, mounted flat on a light metal platform. The sliding breech mechanism was operated by a lever. Charging was accomplished by means of cartridges held in special clips.

These cartridges were of light steel with an oval base that had an opening in the center for ignition.
They were spaced in the 25-Round clip so as to mate with the open rear end of the barrels.

After the breech was locked, each cartridge came to rest with its opening alined to a channel filled with priming powder. All 25 barrels were fired simultaneously by a single nipple and percussion cap, which ignited the powder train, passing the rear hole of each cartridge. A single hammer, manually cocked and released by lanyard, served as the firing mechanism.
The Requa battery did not employ paper cartridges inserted in the steel cases. Instead, the cylinders were loaded by hand with loose powder, and a patched ball was used in the belief it gave the weapon greater accuracy.

Ager "Coffee Mill" Gun

This gun was the invention of Wilson Ager, an American citizen, who for some unknown reason patented his weapon only in Great Britain, although he did patent in this country many industrial devices, such as rice cleaners and corn planters.
The coffee mill gun is a hand-cranked, revolver-type weapon that can use either loosepowder and caliber .58 ball projectile, or an impregnated paper cartridge. The ammunition is loaded into steel containers which do the double duty of being cartridges and explosion chambers. The cartridge does not enter the barrel, but is held in alignment and cammed forward by a wedge lock, the chamber being rotated and held fast behind a stationary barrel, somewhat like a revolver.
To prepare the gun for firing, a number of containers are loaded, either with powder and ball, or a paper cartridge. A percussion cap is placed on a nipple that is screwed into the rear end of the steel container.
These loaded containers are then placed in a rectangular box, or hopper, so mounted on top of the weapon as to allow the containers to roll down, by gravity, one at a time, into a recess formed in the rear of the gun barrel. A crank, turning a system of cogged wheels, allows the charged chamber to be shoved forward forming a prolongation of the barrel. A wedge, rising behind it, locks it in place. Continued turning of the crank secures it firmly for the instant, and while so held, a hammer operating from a camming arrangement falls on the cap, firing the piece. As the crank continues to revolve, the wedge relaxes its pressure. A lever device shoves the discharged container out of the recess, and a loaded container instantly drops into place.
The Ager weapon was purposely made not to exceed a speed of 120 shots per minute, since it used only a single barrel. The heat from rapid firing was considered a serious drawback. Subsequently the inventor arranged a very ingenious cooling device. The superabundant heat was rapidly carried away by a stream of air driven through the barrel and around a jacket surrounding it. The air was forced through the barrel by the action of a turbine type of fan connected to, and operated by, the same turning of the crank that also charged, fired, and ejected the empty containers. This affair also helped blow away any unconsumed particles of paper cartridge that were in the vicinity of the chambers or bore of the weapon.

I have seen WWII steel cased 45ACP ammo.

Russian guns, and Glocks don't seem to mind them at all.

derek45 said:

I have seen WWII steel cased 45ACP ammo.

Click to expand...

Used to pick fired US issue steel case at the range. And toss it, because I could not reload the stuff. At some point, the WW2 crowd shot up all the ammunition they managed to squirrel away, and I have not seen a WW2 steel case 45 ACP round in a long time.

I don't have the pictures, but after WW2, there were experiments by the Army Ordnance Bureau to create steel 30-06 cases. This web site has information on this:

An Introduction to Collecting .30-06 Cartridges
by Chris Punnett

The great problem was always protecting the steel from corrosion so most of the experiments with steel cases concentrated in finding an easy to apply coating. With the exception of F A 19 steel cases which are relatively rare, most of the experiments occurred during WWII and were conducted by Frankford Arsenal though plants such as Lake City, and Twin Cities were involved as was Winchester. Look for steel cases with copper, brass or zinc plating - this is where a magnet is invaluable for spotting the brass/copper washed steel case in a "grab box". Be aware that by 1942 the U.S. had accepted the steel case with a zinc-cronak finish. This gives the cases a dull yellowish look. However, certain storage conditions can discolor this finish and some unscrupulous people have been known to polish the coating off - leaving plain steel. Check for signs of plating in the extractor groove or in the letters of the headstamp. Most experimental case finishes appear on cases headstamped 1942 or 43, or with no headstamp - the latter being not hard to find. Frankford Arsenal Laboratories, where much to the development work was performed sometimes used the FAL 43 headstamps to mark experimental rounds.

In 1955, Frankford loaded some AP rounds and coated both the steel case and the bullet with green Teflon. Apparently this was to see if it reduced "cook-offs" in hot chambers though many assume they were for "Arctic" testing.

Rounds coated with teflon would also feed and extract better, as there is less friction between the case and chamber. Think on this, when you hear claims about lubricated cases dangerously and unpredictably raising chamber pressures, and increasing bolt thrust.

Sintered teflon is used on those steel case Wolf cases, assuming you can find any in the Biden panic.

US development of steel cased small arms ammunition started in earnest in 1939, with studies with various steel alloys and manufacturing methods. Satisfactory caliber .45, caliber .30 and caliber .50 cases designs were available by spring 1942. However, by that time a number of ammunition plants had been established and were either in full rate production or very near full rate production of brass cases, so the two options were, stop production and swap out tooling, re-design the work flow and produce steel cases, or continue with brass.

Obviously, no disruption of ammunition production was desired so brass case production continued. The only major producer of steel cases for the US was the Evansville Ordnance Plant run by Chrysler, in caliber .45, 3,264,281,914 of them to be exact. One of the reasons Evansville made then in steel was the speed at which the plant stood up for production, on 19 Feb 1942 the conversion of the Plymouth assembly plant at Evansville started, by 30 June 1942, they were acceptance testing their first lots of ammunition.

Are the -other personal guns- produced with substandard, soft, cheaper commercial steel?

Apparently, the S&W, Germans, and Czechs...mistakenly ...used high quality steel in my 3rd. Gen 6904, P6, P228, P99 AS, CZ PCR.

Nothing has failed due to using Russian ammo. It has been used much of the time, and in all of my guns (except for .22s). A bit of accelerated wear in the bore won’t be apparent for a long time- if at all, due to typical bimetal bullet coatings.