9mm Nato

The Beretta M9 was adopted by the United States military as their service pistol in 1985.

Nato machine gun ammo caused some guns to fail, with the slide hitting the shooter in the face.

Updated- It also got an enlarged hammer pin that fits into a groove on the underside of the slide. The main purpose is to stop the slide from flying off the frame to the rear if it cracks. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beretta_M9

I remembered the problem, so looked it up.

I have had a few chance times to shoot military 9mm NATO, civilian 9mm NATO from your standard store, and regular 9mm ammo side by side in the M9 and civilian firearms. I found the 9mm NATO stuff slightly warmer than regular 9mm ammo. Not quite +p I have shot and definitely not +p+ levels. I wish I had access to a chronograph to measure the velocity differences, but not that day.

Unless you regularly shoot 9mm NATO and regular ammo side by side and intentionally looking for differences, you may not even notice.

243winxb said:

The Beretta M9 was adopted by the United States military as their service pistol in 1985.

Nato machine gun ammo caused some guns to fail, with the slide hitting the shooter in the face.

Updated- It also got an enlarged hammer pin that fits into a groove on the underside of the slide. The main purpose is to stop the slide from flying off the frame to the rear if it cracks. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beretta_M9

I remembered the problem, so looked it up.

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Yeah I was on the pistol team stationed in Vicenza Italy in 1983 and 84 that worked with Beretta at their plant. (1/509th ABCT and later 4/325th ABCT) ... in actuality we simply shot 1000s and 1000s of rounds at their 500 year old facility every time they tweaked something the U.S. wanted tweaked. When it was finally over they gave all five of us commemorative pistols ... our Batallion Commander made us give them back. Nuke'm Needham was his name. He eventually made 3 stars but man was he an jerk about those pistols. I kinda liked the guy and he liked me ... his final big mission was bringing home MIA bodies from Vietnam.

Anyways ... so yeah, we knew all about the issues with Hirt and some of the other NATO offerings from Germany and elsewhere ... the Hirt was really hot.

The SEALS were warned not to use that ammo in those M9s. Beretta eventually beefed up their slides and frames ... I forget how that all transpired. It was something like a Brigadier model or something like that ... I can't remember, that was a long time ago but the problem was fixed in short order.

NATO ammo is still +P. I was just up at Mackall a couple of months ago shooting with some of the guys and I promise you, NATO 9mm ball fmj is still +P. The P320 is built to take +P+ although it shortens the life of component parts of course.

My personal observations re 9mm NATO, vs 9mm Luger etc.

I shoot mostly my CZ 75, Beretta 92, and Sig P226. I shoot a variety of different brands, based in large part on the price I could get things.

Commercial US brands are generally loaded soft, since they are mostly practice/range ammo. Blazer Brass seemed to be the most consistent, but was still very gentle. WWB and Remington UMC were also pretty soft, and more inconsistent. I'd had a couple squibs with UMC.
I've shot NATO marked MEN and S&B, they had more pop than the US brands. Maybe a bit more than commercial S&B, but it seemed pretty close. Fiocchi was also in that range.
My experiences with PMC, PPU and Aguila, they seemed hotter, approaching the S&B and Fiocchi level, but not meeting it. American Eagle seemed about on that range too, in terms of felt recoil.

I shot some Turkish made Yavex, which significantly exceeded the European NATO loads. As in, quite a noticeable difference, felt like it was a different caliber. Felt good in the CZ and Sig, and in my 5906. It's also supposed to be NATO load, must be near the top level.

I have a number of older pistols, just part of my collecting hobby. The couple I worry about breaking something, I go with Blazer Brass.

I don't pretend to know or understand all the numbers associated with the various 9mm ammunition types. But in the SIG Armorers classes I attended for the traditional P-series pistols, we were told that SAAMI and NATO spec. ammunition was approved for use in SIG pistols. The Glock info packet provided to police departments is not, or at least didn't use to be, the same as the owner's manual provided to commercial buyers. The packet provided to our police department indicated that, "The Glock pistol is designed to fire NATO or SAAMI specification ammunition. Ammunition such as Samson IMI black-tip carbine, +P+ ammunition or any commercially manufactured ammunition may be fired in the Glock pistol." MY 9mm HK USP pistol was also approved for +P+ use.

In addition to the ammunition I've used, mentioned above, I have used the IMI black-tip carbine ammo in various standard 9mm firearms with no issues whatsoever. This, along with the apparently much concerning 9mm +P+ by Winchester and Federal, again no issue other than causing hard extraction in one of my 9mm revolvers. I realize this is just one guy's anecdotal report, and YMMV. In an abundance of caution, I have not used any of the higher pressure ammunition in the Beretta 92, Walther P-38/P-1 type pistols, or any firearms of uncertain quality or past use....

243winxb said:

The Beretta M9 was adopted by the United States military as their service pistol in 1985.

Nato machine gun ammo caused some guns to fail, with the slide hitting the shooter in the face.

Updated- It also got an enlarged hammer pin that fits into a groove on the underside of the slide. The main purpose is to stop the slide from flying off the frame to the rear if it cracks. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beretta_M9

I remembered the problem, so looked it up.

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I was mocked on TFL years ago about this...thank you for bringing a source for the old ( but true) issue of pre-92F slides hitting the shooter. Things disappear, and sometimes re-appear on the internet...( even Archive.org censors)...

That being said, even the source you bring does not mention over pressure ammunition like Sub Gun ammo, still I will post what I was told...

Years ago (in the 90's) I was told by a gunsmith who worked in the Tidewater area ( near Dam Neck) that the issue was Sub machine Gun ammo being used in both SMG's and Pistols with DEVGRU and their very diverse training stock ( cross training with many different platforms). According to him the FN High Power's and CZ-75's held up to the abuse, but the Sig P-220 and Beretta 92 had failures/ parts breakage...not sure how he got the info, and I don't ask such things.

As most of us know ( but needs to be repeated ) Sub Machine Gun ammo is NOT 9mm NATO spec, it is hotter...Uzi ammo, Sterling Ammo, and many more, that is the stuff that should be avoided, thankfully for handgun owners those rounds are rare today.

On a personal note I would not shoot 9mm NATO in a pure civilian handgun, ala Kel Tec, unless it was an emergency.

However 9mm NATO in European Military arm is GTG IMHO, or one designed to shoot it like the newer M17 from Sig (made in the USA). One thing to be sure of is changing the recoil spring every 5,000 rounds to avoid issues.

I don't know the full details of any ammo manufacture or distribution. I merely go by my own observations, and apply a little deductive reasoning. I may or may not be right, but I find my method at least keeps me in the "safe zone"; meaning my line of reasoning might be off, but my conclusions do fit.

The US is, by far, the biggest commercial market for plinking/range ammo. Most of the rest of the world, there may be recreational shooting, but I'd say the markets there lean more towards military/police duty.
The US is also, my guess, the biggest consumer of SD ammo. 9mm HP ammo, etc. Over here, it's practically unthinkable to consider carrying FMJ for defensive usage. I don't know what the civilian markets elsewhere do, but I suspect that HP rds are drastically limited in other "civilized" countries.

Using this reasoning, it then makes some sense-
American-made FMJ ammo is 2 separate, distinct entities. NATO loads (full power) for military. Reduced loads for recreational shooting. Blazer Brass for example, they are not contracted to do any duty stuff. They simply make plinking loads, to put holes in paper. Same for other brands made here. Big market for that. As I understand it, Winchester has the military contract, and they also make NATO for the military. Sometimes they (had) surplus, which they would then sell to the public.
American full-power loads will be the HP loads.

Other, say European companies, I suspect (without proof so don't hold me to this), their primary mission is to produce ammo for their military; and if they have a large enough operation they then sell the remainder (mostly to us over here). In that model, you don't make range vs duty, you make one product. A full power FMJ.

As I said, I have nothing other than speculation to base that on, but it does fit. European brands are hotter than US FMJ, by and large.

Airborne Falcon said:

I dunno about all of that friend ... but I know NATO 9mm would be considered +P by any standards when compared to civilian ammo.

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Okay, whatever . . . .

Maximum average pressure limits:
NATO - 33,359 psi (transducer)
M882 - 215 MPa (transducer, 31,183 psi)
SAAMI - 35,000 psi (transducer)
SAAMI +P - 38,500 psi (transducer)
C.I.P. - 2350 bar (transducer, 34,083 psi)

There is military ammunition that is not NATO spec and is hotter. These do not have the "circle-cross" markings on the headstamp, as they are not made to STANAG 4090.

9mm Ball, M1
NSN - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - DODAC
1305-00-935-6164 - - - - - - - 1305-A360
1305-00-855-5991
1305-00-308-5810
1305-00-308-5811

9mm Ball, M1152
1305-01-663-9409 - - - - - - - 1305-AC20
1305-01-663-9470 - - - - - - - 1305-AC22

9mm Special Purpose, M115
1305-01-663-9480 - - - - - - - 1305-AC21
1305-01-663-9617 - - - - - - - 1305-AC23

9mm Jacketed Hollow Point, Barrier Blind, XM1196
1305-01-676-2226 - - - - - - - 1305-AC54
1305-01-679-3375 - - - - - - - 1305-AC57

tark said:

Amen to that. Wiki occasionally gets it wrong. According to them, Remington chambered their #1 rolling block in 30-06. Wrong, they never did.

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Yup. Wiki is user supplied content. Nothing is verified or edited centrally, so anyone can literally post anything. I do know no professor at the undergrad or grad level would accept any wikipedia sourced or cited material in any of my course work (But wiki citations at the end of an article may often point to a legitimate source of info or data, so not all of it is garbage.)

Stay safe.

Wow! Evryone has an opinion that NATO 9MM is hotter, colder or just right. LOL Goldilocks.
In front of me, as I type, is a box of 50 rounds of Winchester Ranger 9mm NATO 124 gr. full metal jacket.
The box says: "For law enforcement use only. Not for retail sale. Pressure levels exceed industry standards."
There is no information as to velocity, etc.
Picture upon request.
Oh, yes. Bought several boxes on line a couple of years ago (when California allowed us to do so). At that time when I went to the local indoor shooting range they told me I could not use it since it is for LE use only (although the local police trained there). go figure.

243winxb said:

The Beretta M9 was adopted by the United States military as their service pistol in 1985.

Nato machine gun ammo caused some guns to fail, with the slide hitting the shooter in the face.

Updated- It also got an enlarged hammer pin that fits into a groove on the underside of the slide. The main purpose is to stop the slide from flying off the frame to the rear if it cracks. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beretta_M9

I remembered the problem, so looked it up.

Click to expand...

I read the report on this . . . no "submachine gun ammunition."

The Army was verbally advised of a Navy incident which had occurred on 23 September 1987 and involved a slide separation and personal injury at approximately 30,000 rounds on a commercial [Beretta USA] Model 92SB pistol. The Navy indicated the various ammunition types, including non-NATO standard 147 grain sub-sonic ammunition, had been fired in this pistol. Based on this and the fact that 30,000 rounds had been fired on this commercial pistol, the Army initially concluded that the failure potentially could have been avoided by closer visual inspection, that the use of the pistol to 30,000 rounds was highly abnormal and greatly exceeded all expectations and certainly all requirements.

Cracks, but not separation of the slide, had been observed in 1985 by the Army during a Life Assessment Test using three commercial model 92SBF pistols. In that test, a crack indication in the forward radius area of the slide locking block engagement slot had been noted on one pistol during magnetic particle examination at 5,000 rounds. The crack became visible to the unaided eye at 13,000 rounds and the pistol was successfully fired to the scheduled 15,000 rounds without failure. The other two pistols did not have visible cracks at the test conclusion. One of these pistols, which was fired to 13,437 rounds at which time the barrel failed in a safe mode, did show a magnetic particle crack indication at 9,000 rounds. The third pistol had a crack indication at 11,000 rounds and was fired to 15,000 rounds.

The Navy reported a subsequent incident which occurred 6 January 1988 and involved an M9 pistol (the first failure of an M9). Approximate rounds fired were estimated at 4,500 and personal injury resulted. As efforts were underway to more fully analyze the Navy experienced failures and their emerging evaluations, an Army incident occurred 8 February 1988 in a controlled test environment at the U.S. Army Armament Research, Development and Engineering Center (ARDEC) Test Site at Ft. Dix, NJ during test firing of M9 pistols in a nonrelated engineering study of the pistol barrel with early production M882 ammunition. The failure occurred without prior warning at 6,007 rounds with minor injury to the tester and with marked similarity to the low round count Navy experienced incident.

Only the first failure, a commercial pistol had fired non-NATO ammunition, and none of it was "submachine gun ammunition." The cracks, and failures, were caused by improper heat treating of the slides and poor design of the slide locking block slots. During the test of the slide capture mechanism, in order to achieve a slide failure, they had to cut the slide at the fracture point completely through on one side and about half way through on the other.

243winxb said:

Nato machine gun ammo caused some guns to fail, with the slide hitting the shooter in the face.

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This is how i remembered it. Bad memory.

lysanderxiii said:

I read the report on this . . . no "submachine gun ammunition."

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Great info. Thank you.

Taurus G3C owners manual -

epags said:

Wow! Evryone has an opinion that NATO 9MM is hotter, colder or just right. LOL Goldilocks.

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Here's an easy way to view this-

Plinking ammo- Blazer, most aluminum cased stuff, basically MOST American-made FMJ. You generally can shoot the snot out of this stuff, as the intended purpose is to put holes in paper or hit a target.

NATO-spec FMJ, and Standard Velocity self-defense ammo (such as Gold Dot JHP, not the +P stuff)- will be a bit hotter, as it's intended purpose is to shoot someone out of a pistol with a 4+ inch barrel. Should be fine in a pistol designed for duty usage, such as the CZ, Beretta, Sig P series, I assume most fullsize Glocks etc.

+P Self Defense ammo, this stuff is hotter than baseline. Should be okay in such guns for occasional use (to verify it runs), and for carry (you have it, but don't expect to shoot it unless you NEED to).

In an inexpensive subcompact, I don't suspect the intended usage is heavy range use. I think the guns are designed to be shot for confirmation it works, and then to be occasionally shot for staying familiar enough to carry and use if needed. You can probably give it a reasonable diet of something like Blazer, and not beat it up. It's not expected to handle a couple cases of NATO ammo every year.

A wellmade duty gun is likely overbuilt to an extent, and can handle a steady diet of NATO (full strength) ammo, as long as you keep up with changing the springs etc.

I wouldn't expect any true handgun to be happy with a steady diet of +P. There are some that, sprung right, could do so (as they can handle .40 S&W, which I'd suspect is hotter yet).

Paul Harrell’s test of 9mm nato and others:

lysanderxiii said:

Many people incorrectly read the STANAG C.U.P. pressure of 37,000 psi and compare that to the transducer SAAMI limit of 35,000 psi.

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Also, people cite variations among manufacturers, lots, eras, etc and assign it to discrepancies in the standards. SAAMI and CIP use different, incompatible methodologies to measure pressures. There is no standard algorithm or formula to convert CUP to PSI and vis versa.
To further complicate things, the NATA STANAGs call for a methodology that differs from both CIP and SAAMI.

All those are maximums (maxima?), by whatever method.
So if accompanied by reload information, it is a good place to stop.

Otherwise, if I see substantially higher velocity, I will assume it is higher pressure.

twarr1 said:

Also, people cite variations among manufacturers, lots, eras, etc and assign it to discrepancies in the standards. SAAMI and CIP use different, incompatible methodologies to measure pressures. There is no standard algorithm or formula to convert CUP to PSI and vis versa.
To further complicate things, the NATA STANAGs call for a methodology that differs from both CIP and SAAMI.

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Ordinarily, yes.

However, the STANAG standard states that the peak pressure is "corrected", which tells you that the limit pressure will be the equivalent of the standard used by both C.I.P. and SAAMI. This allows for different countries with different test equipment to still maintain a common standard.

"Where the piezo-electric system of pressure measurement is used, the corrected mean pressure shall not exceed 230 MPa and no individual pressure shall exceed 265 MPa."

Jim Watson said:

All those are maximums (maxima?), by whatever method.
So if accompanied by reload information, it is a good place to stop.

Otherwise, if I see substantially higher velocity, I will assume it is higher pressure.

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Generally speaking this is always true, however, "higher pressure" does not mean +P pressure ranges.

According to Hodgdon's reloading data, with a 124 grain bullet you can get 1,150 fps (out of a 4" bbl), and still stay under 35,000 psi (the commercial limit), and with a 115 grain pill, you can get 1,200 and stay under 32,000 psi.

It’s how Buffalo Bore does it. They have standard pressure 125 grn 9mm that does 1,150 fps in a 4” bbl. They just load it much closer to the max pressure than other manufacturers.

Zendude said:

It’s how Buffalo Bore does it. They have standard pressure 125 grn 9mm that does 1,150 fps in a 4” bbl. They just load it much closer to the max pressure than other manufacturers.

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I have read this also. BB's 147gr +p+ is not loaded over SAAMI and they claim it runs at 1150fps. I've shot it and it's not bad at all, possibly less felt recoil than some popular 124gr +p rounds I've shot.

Just for the sake of information, I pulled out my last box of 9mm NATO ammo I have. It is a "rainy day" box when I run out of other stuff to shoot. It is Winchester branded 150 round pack. Here are the labels on the side and bottom.

CopperFouling said:

If you reload, the brass is more than likely crimped and will add more steps to your reloading.

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I'd go so far as to say if the primer is not crimped its only "NATO" as a marketing term.

I have a Winchester commercially marked box of 50 rounds. Box colored the 'white box' style. It is marked 9mm NATO 127 gr. Full Metal Jacket (on the box) and has a waring "For law enforcement use only [next line] not for retail sale". It was given to me when the organization changed issue pistols.

It looks much like a regular FMJ 9mm cartridge. The head stamp is "WCC 86" centered at 6 o'clock with the NATO symbol (cross in circle) at the 12 o'clock position. It shows a slight ring around the primer as a crimp.
That ammunition was not the issue carry ammunition at the time, but it was used in regular training (not for qualification). The issue - and only sidearm allowed - was the Glock 17 in what seemed to me to be typical commercial form.

Looking at TM 43-0001-27, ARMY AMMUNITION DATA SHEETS SMALL CALIBER AMMUNITION, one finds a listing on page 12-3 a listing for commercially obtained 9mm ball ammunition. The page has this use statement:
Modified M3 Submachine Gun or commercial weapons. (The use in M9 Pistol is not authorized.) The cartridge is intended for use against personnel. (Emphasis added.)
Bullet weight is given as 115 grains.
The entry also prescribes a 'mid case pressure' of 38.500 psi average and maximum of 43,000 psi.
Prior to that is:

The next entry, page 12-5, is M882 NATO ball. To sum up it lists a 112 grain FMJ bullet with a case mouth pressure of 31,175 psi (average) and 36,250 psi (maximum). It is authorized for the M9 pistol. Can be used in some listed non-standard pistols and sub-machine guns. Checking this information against the information given for the commercial round, it has a higher average and a lower maximum. Hummpf?


My observation is the TM is woefully confusing. It doesn't really explain a lot and I'm not sure of the intended use. It doesn't have much detail for discussions such as this.

No ammunition is deemed 'submachinegun' ammo. One gets the idea that one uses commercial ammunition in submachinegun, but no specific round is made with intent for submachinegun only.

If the reader wishes to inspect the document look up "TM 43-0001-27" on a web search. Good luck.

"but no specific round is made with intent for submachinegun only."

sorry, but you are incorrect:

https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/sub-machine-gun-ammo.761912/

http://www.uzitalk.com/reference/pages/ammo.htm