Sub machine gun ammo

[tark]

I need some help here from those more knowledgeable than I.

All of my life I have been reading about "hot loaded Submachine gun ammo" and how it should not be fired in handguns.. This usually referred to 9X19 ammo. I have also read about super hot loaded Yugoslavian ammo for the CZ-52 that should not be fired in Tokarevs.

I have never seen a picture of a box of ammo that is so marked. Does this stuff really exist? I mean, what would be the advantage of loading such ammo...? The dangers would far outweigh the small advantages in ballistics that would be achieved. You can shoot it in your subgun but it will blow up your Luger...or your P-38.?? If you shoot the pistol ammo in your Subgun it might stovepipe and short stroke and get you killed???

It makes absolutely no sense for any army to load two different pressure levels for any given cartridge; the potential dangers are obvious.....

So help me, cartridge collectors of the world. Does hot loaded subgun ammo really exist.... or is it just a myth...

Like the one that says 7.62X25 Tokarev ammo is loaded hotter than 7.63 Mauser ammo...

 

[barnbwt]

1) There's supposed to be a legitimately bad batch of (Bulgarian?) ammo out there, with a known headstamp to look out for
2) The same power ammo was used in the design of all 7.62x25 guns (doesn't mean individual plants made it the same; they didn't. Czech stuff tends to be hotter than Russian, if memory serves, but both are safe in CZ52's and Tokarevs in working order, as well as the assorted CZ26/PPSH/etc.)
3) I think all the 7.62x25 ammo made now is a bit weaker than the Czech, with S&B being the strongest at present (supposed to be new production stuff arriving soon from another maker, I hear ). I believe all x25 made at this point in history has been weaker than the original 30 Mauser used in those 'delicate' broomhandle pistols, so keep that in perspective when appraising the x25 . I can attest that the four rounds out of 20 of original Mauser ammo that I managed to get to fire in my C96 (dud primers galore) were shockingly loud, bright, and painful; and I'm used to firing Bulgy ammo through a CZ52.
4) There is subgun ammo out there in other calibers, namely 9mm. Given the huge number of users over the last century, it's hard to believe it wasn't adapted in +P configurations along the way for weapons that were designed for it (i.e. Russia has that new +P+ AP stuff, but I'll bet they still field plenty of old guns that would be rapidly destroyed by it; they just keep an eye on their logistical train to make sure their paths don't cross)
5) The "Not for STEN" ammo myth came about due to the US supplying the Brits with ammo too weak to operate those particular guns properly, causing them to fail to catch on the sear (runaway gun; very dangerous). Thus, the ammo was marked not for the STENs, and then ironically gained notoriety as being 'too powerful' by people who didn't know the whole story. At least, that's the tale I've heard.
6) 7.62x25 (or Mauser, specifically) is the best '9mm case-head' cartridge that has been developed, and it is only through cruel twists of history that it hasn't caught on (yet ) in the West

TCB

 

[Carl N. Brown]

In World War II, the Italians had three cartridges using the 9x19mm case. One was a light load for the lightly constructed Glisenti pistol, one was the standard 9mm Parabellum as spec'd for common 9mm pistols, and one was the M38 headstamp load for the Beretta M38 submachinegun which was too hot for the Glisenti pistol. Glisenti rounds were loaded with a bullet that had a truncated cone appearance rather than the round nose of the Parabellum or M38. M38 ammo was unpleasant to fire in the Glisenti pistol, and Glisenti ammo in the M38 Beretta submachine gun would not kick back far enough to engage the sear: a Beretta SMG with Glisenti ammo would runaway.

Shortly after the end of WWII the Czechs developed a series of submachineguns first in 9mm then in 7.62x25. They also used loading of the 7.62x25 in 1948 which gave a boost over the standard 7.62x25 Tokarev load. The Czechs then introduced the CZ52 pistol designed to shoot both their M48 submachine gun load and the standard Russian 7.62x25 pistol and submachine gun ammo. The Czech load was usually found in 8 shot stripper clips; the SMGs had a magazine loader built in the side of the forearm; four 8 shot clips per magazine.

Most countries though use the same loading for both pistols and SMGs, whether 9x19mm, 7.62x25mm or .45ACP.

 

[CWL]

I know that 147gr 9mm NATO is meant for submachine guns. This ammo is sub sonic to help with suppressors. While sub sonic, military grade ammo still tends to be loaded hotter than civilian ammo.

As a owner of a few P7 family pistols, I often get warned to not use 147gr 9mm as the bullet is too heavy for the gas piston system. (have read pros and cons to this)

 

[snooperman]

I have a STEN gun and 25 years ago I was buying Egyptian 9mm submachine gun ammo for it at about $60 a case. I shot 12 cases (12,000 rds) through it and never had a problem with it. It was very hot ammo which is needed in the STEN because the bolt is very heavy, but not as heavy as the M3A1 grease gun I was armed with in 45ACP when I was a Tanker in the 4th Armored DIV. The Egyptian ammo was very corrosive and I would shoot 400-450 rds at a time because I would clean the whole gun with hot soapy water back then, because of the corrosive primers. Wish I could still get it now even though it stunk worse than any ammo I had ever used. Not all modern sub 9mm guns need that hot ammo because the bolt in most, like the H&K MP5 and UZI is very light in weight. Britain made over 6 million STEN guns . Mine is the MK 2. I never shot any of this hot ammo in my 9mm pistols as I was afraid of it and was warned by those selling it of the dangers it could pose.

 

[AK103K]

I used to buy a good bit of the SMG only marked surplus back in the 80's and 90's, and Ive run across a couple of batches of it over the years, that shouldnt be used in handguns, if you want them to hold up.

This stuff here,



which is Spanish, is marked for pistol and SMG, but it was VERY hot, and it took just slightly less than the 2000 round case of it Id got, to do this to my SWD M11/9mm SMG....




I have owned a couple of Star military handguns over the years, and they are quite robust, so maybe its not an issue with them.

I have a STEN gun and 25 years ago I was buying Egyptian 9mm submachine gun ammo for it at about $60 a case.

Was it this stuff?




I was paying about the same for it, and still have some left, although I wont bother shooting it. It was "warm", and VERY corrosive. Comes packed 36 rounds to a box, and was meant for the Egyptian version of the Swedish M45/"Swedish K", the Port Said. Their mags hold 36 rounds.

Its the only stuff Ive ever used that would literally rust the gun overnight in humid weather.

 

[VINTAGE-SLOTCARS]

About 1985 I had some black tipped 9mm ammo. I don't remember the case stampings. I was told it was sub gun ammo. I fired abot 5 rounds thru my p7 when the extractor blew out the side. The recoil seemed a little hoter than usual. I disposed of the rest of the ammo.

 

[tark]

Well, it appears that the stuff DOES exist! Thank you one and all for the education.

 

[AK103K]

About 1985 I had some black tipped 9mm ammo. I don't remember the case stampings. I was told it was sub gun ammo. I fired abot 5 rounds thru my p7 when the extractor blew out the side. The recoil seemed a little hoter than usual. I disposed of the rest of the ammo.

UZI/IMI marketed some black tipped "carbine" ammo about then.

Glock even had a factory letter floating around at the time, recommending it in their 9mm pistols, due to complaints of some of the commercial 9mm at the time not being hot enough to ensure reliable function.

I shot some of that ammo in my MP5, and it was actually starting to fire form the brass into the chamber flutes, something no other ammo had done. It really didnt "feel" hot, or any hotter than anything else, and Im wondering if maybe they had a bad lot of brass. I never tried any more to find out though.

 

[Slamfire]

It makes absolutely no sense for any army to load two different pressure levels for any given cartridge; the potential dangers are obvious.....

I agree. I would be curious to see ammunition marked "SMG" only, but the result would have been damaged pistols. Once troops find the hotter ammunition, you know they would run it in their pistols, and that would cause worn or damaged pistols.

Examples of blown guns only shows one problem with old ammunition. Shooters are very ignorant of this aspect of gunpowder, that is, at the end of its shelf life, pressures spike. I think this, more than anything else, is the origin of the idea that there was pistol ammunition meant for sub guns. People don’t know the chemistry or kinetics, but they still try to explain what is going on. Similiar to the concept that Yellow Fever came out of the "vapors".

I think it poor economy to use old surplus ammunition in a registered machine gun, and risk blowing up the thing due to high pressures, or prematurely wearing the thing out. You lose the registered part through a blowup, you don’t get it back. One objective of the law was that the number of machine guns in the hands of civilians would decrease over time.

You could create pistol ammunition better suited for sub gun use without creating high pressure ammunition. Use a powder that the pressure drop is relatively slow. Given that sub guns are blow back, and use a very heavy breech blow, I think a powder, like Blue Dot, which has a relatively high residual pressure at unlock, and yet, is within pressure spec, is a better way to go. Still, might blow case heads as case sidewalls don’t automatically become thicker for sub guns and this would be hard on any buffer.

 

[jhb]

I know for a fact rom, polish, yugo tokarevs can handle any ammo a cz52 can. The cz52 isn't any more robust than most of the tokarevs....barring of course defective parts and poor heat treating issues etc.

In facts it's ultra thin chamber wall due to the bearings design makes it less durable. The old theories of the cz52 being more durable were mostly misunderstandings of the roller bearings and other assumptions. It's well known and proved the tokarevs will outlast the cz52 all things being equal.

In the end the cz52 myth of being much more durable has been proven wrong many times.

That said it's a finely over engineering pistol and who doesn't like czech made weapons...but as for being able to handle hotter ammo than most tokarev variants......just not true. Someone will argue but the proof is out there.

 

[kBob]

I was once looking into Second Chance body armor before a trip over seas. I was sent a test swath of the Second Chance brand soft armor and told it would stop 9x19mm and to tape the swath to a stack of magazines to test it for proof.

Having packed up most everything the only 9 silly meter pistol I had was a Ruger Blackhawk convertible. The only ammo I had was some silver bulleted mil surp.

Well I leaned the magazines a swath up against a black oak and let fly from about seven yards. The bullet penitrted the swath.....a two inch thick stack of magazines taped together and completely buried itself in the tree.

There followed a phone conversation with the owner of Second chance then some research and another phone conversation. Turns out the ammo was a 108 grained iron slug that was meant for the Czech M24 series SMG. Later I shot the other end of the swath with some plain vanilla 115 grain FMJ stuff and it stopped that fine BTW. What was left of the Czech ammo was shot up only in my Blackhawk on my return to the US.

Because of time constraints I did not by soft body armor. Turns out I did not need it thank goodness. I did wear a "chicken vest" or parts of it on occasion (it was ceramic plates over older military soft body armor) I rather liked it for extened wear despite the weight over the M1967 frag jacket which BTW failed to stop Geco 9x19 mm FMG from an astra 600 in a test we did in 1975.

-kBob (Oh....my ....Gohd! I just read back over that and I do sound like Jonathan Quail Higgins like my son says! Puts me in mind of a time in Holland when...........)

 

[snooperman]

AK103K, that is the Egyptian ammo I used and it would rust your gun in about 2 days if you did not clean it with hot soapy water. I would heat it an old oven I had in my barn , after cleaning and spray it down with G96. Now I just use my own hot reloads for the sten.

 

[Icky The Great]

I had some Sten guns and a few sub guns and used a lot of different ammo through them. As stated previously my Stens loved hot ammo. The Egyptian stuff was always problematic with duds, bullets jamming back into the case, split cases, etc. However when it did work it did so well with acceptable accuracy out of a sub gun. When I used it in the pistols I noticed issues immediately. My SW and my Taurus didn't fair so well with it though my Beretta 92 had no issues. When I had some of the M38 ammo from Italy it broke the extractor on my Browning Hi Power. I thought maybe it was just a weak part but it broke again after it was replaced. I also noticed that the mg ammo didn't always fire in standard pistols because of hard primers. I had some German 9x19 from '43/'44 and it wouldn't fire in my friends SW or Glock. I either sold off or shot up the mg ammo in military weapons. So to answer the OP, I recommend not using it in commercial pistols.

 

[herkyguy]

The closest I've come to hotter loads was a few hundred rounds of. .45 ACP with a TZZ head stamp. I believe it's Israeli and high quality. I e read that it's thicker and usually pretty hot, but I had no problems out of my Sig 1911.

 

[Carl N. Brown]

Icky the Great: "I also noticed that the mg ammo didn't always fire in standard pistols because of hard primers."

I have noticed some foreign ammo (S&B .380 and PPU military surplus 7.62x25) behaves like my dumb handloading substitution of small rifle primer for small pistol primer: occasional rounds requiring a second strike to fire. Whether that ammo was loaded with rifle primers for SMG use, I don't know. PPU commercial 7.62x25 has always fired in my CZ52 pistol but the military surplus occassionally required a second strike.

 

[LeftyTSGC]

Even the US uses two types of 9mm Ammo.

9mm Ball

Use:
Modified M3 Submachine Gun or commercial weapons. (The use in M9 Pistol is not authorized.) The cartridge is intended for use against personnel.
Description:
BALL Cartridge.
Performance:
NOTE Mid case pressures normally run 8000 to 10,000 psi higher than case mouth pressure.
Mid case pressure...................... 38,500 psi (avg), 43,000 psi (max) Velocity ..................................... 1125 + 90 fps, 15 ft from muzzle

CARTRIDGE, 9 MM, BALL, NATO, M882

Use:
Pistol, 9 mm, M9. The cartridge is intended for use against personnel.
NOTE
M882 ammunition can be used in the following nonstandard weapons:
Pistol Submachine Guns HK P7 series (GE) HK MP5 (GE) Walther P38 (GE) HK MP5SD (GE) FN P35 (BE) IMI Uzi (IS) Baretta M12 (IT) FFV M45/45B (SW) Madsen M50 (DE) CZ M23 (CZ) Sten MK II (UK) Sterling 12A3 (UK)

Performance:
Case mouth pressure........................31,175 psi (avg), 36,250 psi (max) Velocity ............................................1263 ± 5 fps, 15 ft from muzzle


If you look at the stats, you can see that the M3 SMG ammo has a lower velocity than the Nato, but has an increased pressure.

 

[jonnyc]

There is no 7.62x25 Tokarev ammo loaded for submachine-guns only.......it simply does not exist.

However, there is documented 9x19 ammo that is loaded hot specifically for SMG use. One good example is Israeli mil-surp "UZI" ammo. While it might function well in some pistols, it will increase wear in others, and even "blow" some. I've seen what "UZI" ammo can do to your friendly, neighborhood Helwan pistol.

 

[Copper75]

I know you were talking about "older" ammo but we still buy +P+ 147 gr 9mm for use in sub guns.
Winchester still makes it, or did recently.
It's too hot for pistols in my opinion.

 

[mattk]

knob,thanks for laugh.
As kid I watched Magnum P I quite a bit. Magnum was my go to show when I was home sick. Ill still watch it if it's on tv.
Back on topic, I remember seeing boxes of surplus 9mm marked not for sten on big black letters. I assumed it was because it wouldn't cycle a sten.

 

[dogtown tom]

Real operators use 9mm Quad in their subguns.

 

[Icky The Great]

Some of the German 43 stuff I had fired out of my Hi Power actually started to split the case mouths. Being the harder primer and more than likely a sealer around the primers and steel cased the split mouth was my only reliable indicator for hot loads. As to the other stuff I have shot, as mentioned my extractor broke and I have had a few stuck cases in the chambers.

 

[Sebastian the Ibis]

Samco still has some hot Pakistani SMG ammo for sale. I have never been interested as it is corrosive, but someone out there might want a taste of the oldies:

https://www.samcoglobal.com/Ammo-9mm-ball.html

 

[Rock185]

I've not tried any of the third world or Spanish 9MM ammo, SMG or otherwise. I have chronographed a bunch of standard pressure, +P, +P+, "Carbine Only", and NATO ammo over the last 30 years or so. Seems like I may have chronographed some SMG ammo years ago, but I'd have to check my notes on that. I can say that the Israeli/IMI 115 grain black tip Eagle "Carbine Only" ammo averaged around 1180+ to 1250+ fps in pistol length barrels, and 1430fps fps in the Marlin Camp Carbine with 16.25" barrel. FWIW, I shot all the IMI black tip carbine ammo I could find, and afford, mostly through various pistols, and some in the carbine. It is a little warmer than most commercial ammo, but caused no issues at all with any of my guns. The Carbine Only ammo was very similar in ballistics to today's Winchester Q4318 124 grain NATO ammo. I've used a bunch of the Winchester NATO 9MM over the past ~15 years in pistols, revolvers and carbines. No issues at all. Good ammo. Some +P and all the +P+ stuff is noticeably warmer than the carbine only ammo I tested. I also had some IMI 9MM Brown Tip 115 grain ammo, but can't recall if it was marked SMG. It was acually a bit hotter than the black tip stuff, averaging 1300 fps or so from pistol length barrels. Carbine Only and SMG marked ammo obviously exists, but I'm not at all sure it is hotter in every case than common 9MM ammo...ymmv

 

[Tirod]

After a few years of fielding the M9 there were reports that the slide would suffer damage and failure. At first it was taken at face value that the guns were weak defective trash we should have never issued. Once the first reports got passed around - and a lie can travel halfway around the world before the truth gets it's shoes on - we got the rest of the story.

That specific failure was related to the shooters using SMG ammo due to their logistics system not recognizing the NSN differences as described in Lefty's post. The Army has at least two different 9mm ball ammo, one for pistols, and another for SMG's like the Uzi and HK. They were in the government inventory at the time, and Ammo Supply Points had it in stock.

The fact was the M9 was being abused by shooting hot SMG loads thru it, which caused the slide problems, and once the dust settled it wasn't as big a deal as some made out. Use the correct ammo.