The single-action safety-notch and the "Cowboy Load" myth

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I always figured the average movie watcher does not want to watch a two minute reload every five or six shots.

After a lot of practice, I can empty and reload a Colt in about 30 seconds.

Of course it is quicker with a Top Break Smith because I can dump out all the empties at once. With a Colt you have to manually poke out each empty with the ejector rod, which takes extra time.

I hasten to add that my quick reloads of a Colt was done with dummy rounds. In CAS we have not had a revolver reload in a bazillion years, so reloading on the firing line is a moot issue.
 
I would think that it was common to load all 6 chambers until it was determined to not be safe, but that may have been a while. If you dropped your gun on the frontier and it discharged and hit you, there may have been no one there to see it happen and you might not have lived to tell the tale. With no TV or internet it could have been years after the problem was known before it was common knowledge among users
 
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Yup. And some of us keep a 45-70 round in our gunbelts, just as an homage to the Duke. However I discovered long ago that filling the loops on my belt with 25 rounds of ammo makes it way too heavy to carry all day. I only have the 45-70 round these days, plus a few 44-40s in case I need to do a rifle reload. Need to get rid of the knife too.

View attachment 1010344

Amen. I keep five a side in the loops for cosmetics.


Nice thing about the Schofield replicas is that a speedloader for the S&W 25-5 etc will also load the Schofield, at least as quickly. Not relevant for CAS, and I don't plan on going into combat with a Schofield, or anything else for that matter. But then, I have car insurance as well...
 
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LOL. As usual the thread has drifted far left of the OP thoughts. Cant find any mention movie stars although “the cowboy load” part is unclear.
I’ll reiterate, where I a desperado, LEO or citizen packing iron back in the day I’d load six. .
As to percussion guns. Of my 20 or so some have cylinder notches some pins some none. None are original so I yield to Mr Driftwoods expertise.
 
We’re talking about actors here. Have you watched Kevin Costner’s reload in Open Range? It’s painful.

I have seen Open Range many times. I particularly like the scene where Costner fires about a dozen rounds out of his revolver without reloading. I don't recall the reloading scene, I will have to watch for that.

Full Disclosure Department: I must confess my 30 second Colt reload was done by loading five spent 45 Colt rounds into the revolver, and laying out five dummy rounds to be reloaded on the dining room table. I started the clock and preceded to punch out the five empties, then grab the dummies off the table and pop them in, in the approved method of load one, skip one, load four more, bring the hammer to full cock and lower it on the empty chamber. I was amazed how quickly I could empty the revolver, but I have been playing with Colts for a long time. But picking up the dummies off the dining room table was probably cheating a bit. It would probably have been much slower if I was crouching behind cover and pulling my rounds to reload out of belt loops.

I recall videoing doing this, but I have been unable to find the video file. Perhaps if I find it I will put it on my you tube page so it can be viewed.

P.S. I just found this photo of setting up for my Reloading Challenge. It's been awhile but I guess I was comparing the time it took me to reload a S&W Top Break New Model Number Three to how long it took to reload a Colt. Now I would really like to find the videos to check it out again.

pnt6vjRJj.jpg
 
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Howdy Again

With the large frame (#3) Smith and Wesson Top Breaks, the rims were too close together to allow a firing pin to placed between the rims to prevent the cylinder from turning. Just like with the photo of the Colt SAA cylinder I posted earlier. Trust me on this, I just tried. The rounded tip of the firing pin will ride up over the bevel of the rims and the cylinder can easily be turned.

This is a photo of a 2nd Model Russian loaded with five spent rounds of 44 Russian brass.

View attachment 1010328



With the Schofield model, with its larger diameter brass there was even less space between rims and the result is the same. A firing pin resting between the rims does not bottom out on the cylinder and does not prevent the cylinder from rotating.

View attachment 1010329


I have not tried yet with the smaller 38 or 32 caliber Smiths, I suspect it might work since they were all five shooters and there was probably more space between rims for a firing pin to rest.

That experiment will have to wait for another day.




The problem with your argument here is you are using modern boxer primed brass cartridge cases with industry standardized rims.

The US Army did not use boxer primed cases during the period being discussed here.They used a Benet Primed case which looks to have smaller diameter rim. I would theorize that might be possible to have the firing pin rest between the rims of the Benet prime cases.

Original Franfurt arsenal produced 45 Colt:
45Colt1874.jpg

45 Colt Schofield:
45ColtSchof1875.jpg


More reading here:
https://www.oldammo.com/november14.htm

This then begs another question... what was the most available cartridge (to civilians) "on the shelf" of the day. Was it the Benet cartridge or the boxer primed cartridge.


Edit: Reading the Gould article he mentions center fire external priming. 1882 (per the old ammo link) is the date the Frankford Arsenal switched to boxer priming. Begs the question will a SAA firing pin fit between 1882 45 cartridge case rims?
 

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Howdy One More Time

Going through my collection of books, I came across this reprint of the manual of Army Revolvers and Gatling Guns, originally published by the National Armory at Springfield Massachusetts in 1875.

View attachment 1010339


View attachment 1010340




On this page it clearly references a safety notch on the hammer.

View attachment 1010341


The next page describes how to load the revolver. Second paragraph down, I'm too tired to type it out myself, you can all read it for yourselves. Notice it says to "bring the hammer to the safety notch: keep it there until the Revolver is to be fired."

View attachment 1010342




Nothing mentioned about "load one, skip one, load four more, bring the hammer to full cock, and lower it on an empty chamber", which is the way those of us who shoot Colts (and replicas) these days always do it.

I will add, this is how the Army instructed troops to load the Colt Single Action Army in 1875. However, the SAA had only been in existence at this time for two years, the first contracts with the Army happened in 1873. Perhaps at this date Lieut. Col. Benton and Capt. Farley were not yet aware of the dangers of letting the hammer down on the 'safety notch' with a live round under the hammer.

By the way, this manual also covers the Schofield model.

It simply says to "swing the barrel open to its full extent, and place the cartridges in the cylinder".

It goes on with other stuff about the Schofield model, but that's all it says about loading it. Nothing about only loading it with five rounds.

As I believe I have stated earlier, I only load my original Smith and Wesson Top Break revolvers with five rounds, and I always lower the hammer on an empty chamber.

It would be interesting to see if there were later revisions to this manual. We all know the tale of the Army pulling the SAA out of storage during the Moro uprising. What was the loading procedure during that time period (1899-1913)?
 
The problem with your argument here is you are using modern boxer primed brass cartridge cases with industry standardized rims.

The US Army did not use boxer primed cases during the period being discussed here.They used a Benet Primed case which had a significantly smaller diameter rim. I would theorize that might be possible to have the firing pin rest between the rims of the Benet prime cases.

Au contraire!

While what you say about the 45 Colt cartridge is true, the rims of the old stuff were much smaller in diameter than modern 45 Colt, not so much with the 45 Schofield rims.

I have great respect for The Old Ammo Guy, but you will notice he does not mention the rim diameter of the Benet primed 45 Schofield ammo.

Modern SAAMI standard for the rim of 45 Schofield is .520. A random sampling of modern Starline 45 Schofield rim diameters reveals them to be between .518 and .520 in diameter. I have two of the old Benet primed 45 Schofield rounds in my cartridge collection. Rim diameter on each of them is .517. Hardly enough to make any difference if I had chambered six of them in my Schofield and rested the firing pin between rims.

In this photo, the two rounds on the left are 45 Colt, the two rounds on the right are 45 Schofield. The two rounds on the outside are my reloads with modern brass, the two in the center are copper cased, Benet primed rounds.

pm0GKsJtj.jpg




A few years ago I popped my two Benet Primed 45 Schofield rounds into the cylinder of a 2nd Gen Colt, along with four rounds of modern Starline 45 Schofield ammo. I don't remember exactly why, but clearly the 45 Schofield rims fit just fine into a Colt cylinder. I can assure you that if I had popped six of the old Benet Primed Schofield rounds into my Schofield revolver, the results would have been the same. The firing pin would rest on the edges of the rims and would not contact the cylinder face.

pmVyTn0Lj.jpg




Regarding doing it with the Russian revolver and 44 Russian ammo, 44 Russian has always been loaded with Boxer priming.


I have an entire box of Benet Primed 45 Colt ammo in my cartridge collection. Rim diameters run a minuscule .503-.504, vs current SAAMI standard of .512. I suppose I should try the firing pin between rims on a Colt with these old rounds to see if it makes any difference in a Colt.

plpYHejkj.jpg




Just for the fun of it, here is a photo of a bunch of old 45 Colt cartridges in my collection. A Benet primed one is all the way on the left, a modern round all the way on the right. Yup, lots of tiny rims, except second from the right. That is one of the 45 Colt rounds the Frankford Arsenal was making up around 1909 if memory serves, with the extra wide rim. I forget off the top of my head just how wide it is.

potTLQBej.jpg
 
I have seen Open Range many times. I particularly like the scene where Costner fires about a dozen rounds out of his revolver without reloading. I don't recall the reloading scene, I will have to watch for that.
He shakes the empties out, instead of using the ejector.

I can reload one in a matter of seconds but most actors and moviemakers aren't going to go to that much trouble.
 
He shakes the empties out, instead of using the ejector.

Oh! Getting a little bit far afield here, but I have been at the unloading table at a CAS match plenty of times when a cowboy unloads his revolver by banging the butt on the table to persuade the empties to shake out of the chambers. Mostly Smokeless guys shooting mouse fart loads. These are also the guys who are always on the quest for 'clean burning' loads.

Whenever I encounter one of these guys I delight in asking them what they think that thing under the barrel is for.
 
"So i'm not asking whether or not it is safe to rely on the safety notch in the 21st century.
Instead i'm asking: how did people actually carry their revolvers in the 1870s-1890's?"



Honestly, there's a lot of picking of nits here in my opinion.

How many different ways are there to carry any given firearm these days? And how many different points of view/arguments do people have over this in modern times?

Take the 1911...how many times have we heard phrases like "...the way JMB intended for it to be carried"?

Use THIS holster but not THAT holster; carry THIS way but not THAT way, carry THIS gun but not THAT gun...

How many times have people nowadays argued/debated downloading magazines from their design full capacity for any number of reasons?

How many products/services are there that were designed to function/be operated one way but which actually aren't in real life?

How many people blindly operate something a certain way simply because "they've always done it that way" or "if it's good enough for my dad, it's good enough for me"?

How many "experts" do we know in various fields who either aren't really much of an expert, have turned out to be liars, or were simply wrong?

People honestly have not changed all that much over the centuries. Everybody has an opinion and we all argue/debate about everything.

The reality is very likely that "people" carried their revolvers in the 1870s to 1890s in much the same way that "people" of modern times carry their firearms...stuffed in waistbands, carried in bags, loaded, unloaded, rusty, dirty, clean/oiled, holsters on their belts, crossdraw holsters, low slung gun belts, concealed, open, and yes..."cowboy loaded" as well as fully loaded.

You can also bet that they also had negligent discharges, accidental discharges, squibs, broken firearms, modified firearms, murders, suicides, etc.

You can also bet that the vast majority of these people were "experts" who "knew the proper way to (blank)".

Just. Like. Today.

But, surprisingly, these people from a century and a half ago were not "stupid". In a world where a significantly large portion of the population worked with heavy equipment, sharp implements, and even firearms, they had a pretty good understanding of what it mean to safely operate/handle the tools of the day. Loosing a finger, hand, foot, leg, or life (especially knowing what kind of medical care was required for many serious injuries), it's a given that taking a bullet for doing something stupid wasn't desired then any more than it is these days.


The answer to "how did people actually carry their revolvers in the 1870s-1890's?" is "every way under the sun". Including cowboy loaded and fully loaded, safety notched and hammer down.
 
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Going through my collection of books, I came across this reprint of the manual of Army Revolvers and Gatling Guns, originally published by the National Armory at Springfield Massachusetts in 1875.

On this page it clearly references a safety notch on the hammer.

The next page describes how to load the revolver. Second paragraph down, I'm too tired to type it out myself, you can all read it for yourselves. Notice it says to "bring the hammer to the safety notch: keep it there until the Revolver is to be fired."

Nothing mentioned about "load one, skip one, load four more, bring the hammer to full cock, and lower it on an empty chamber", which is the way those of us who shoot Colts (and replicas) these days always do it.

This is great, thanks for posting it Driftwood Johnson. I've found a copy of the manual on google books free for other's to read; being 150 years old it's long out of copyright: https://www.google.com/books/edition/Rules_for_the_Inspection_of_Army_Revolve/P_tBAAAAYAAJ?

It's interesting to note that the Springfield manual refers to the safety notch in refence as one of the "principle changes" from Colt's 1860 army; this implies that the cylinder safety notches were used on 1860 percussion revolvers, and the hammer safety notch was to be it's replacement on the Colt 1873 SAA.

2021-07-09 12_00_27.png



So far we have documented historical evidence that:
  1. The US army recommended carrying 6 cartridges, and on the safety notch (per the 1875 Springfield Armory manual)
  2. The professional target shooting crowd preferred and recommended carrying 6 cartridges, and on the safety notch (per Gould's 1888 book)
  3. At least some professionals, such as law enforcement officers, carried 6 cartridges (per Wyatt Earp's recorded ND reported by the Wichita Beacon in 1876).
On the other hand, there are NO documented contemporaneous accounts of "load 1, skip 1; carry 5 on an empty chamber" from the 1870's and 1880's.

Thus I'm inclined to believe the original Colt instructions was something similar to what is described in the 1875 Springfield Armory manual. If Colt ever recommended in the 1870's that the revolver be carried with 5 shots and an empty chamber, I don't see any good reason why Springfield Armory would deliberately instruct against or refute Colt's original operating instructions, especially since this was such new technology at the time.

Additionally, Gould's instructions are so similar to the 1875 Springfield armory instructions, that I believe either: (A) Gould copied the instructions from the 1875 springfield armory manual, or (B) it is more likely they both took their instructions from the Colt factory manual, which would have described the same process of loading all cylinders and using the safety notch.

There is also some indirect evidence, such as:
  1. From Colt's advertisements, the 1873 SA and 1877/1878 DAs were marketed 6-shot revolver, not 5-shot revolvers. And no competitor marketed their revolver as being "capable of being carried on 6 instead of 5", even though there were companies that designed revolvers that were capable of that (as H&R instructed with their top breaks in the 1890s).

So now it's matter of finding a copy of Colt's original instructions. From internet pictures of original 1st gen SAA boxes, I don't see any operating instructions. But maybe a more experienced collector with a more thorough collection will be able to comment on this.


The other question, of course, is when did the general knowledge around operating colt SAA's and DA's change to loading 5 and carrying on an empty chamber?

Drobs brings up a good question:
It would be interesting to see if there were later revisions to this manual. We all know the tale of the Army pulling the SAA out of storage during the Moro uprising. What was the loading procedure during that time period (1899-1913)?

We know by the time Elmer Keith was writing, it was recommended to carry 5 loaded and 1 empty.
But when did this knowledge become mainstream and commonly practised?

From our documented evidence, definitely not in the 1870's, and very likely not in the 1880's. So it would have to be sometime after the mid 1890's.
In other words, long after the "Old West" period was over.
 
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I'd like to make three points.

First I too have read that early on (1870s) Colt recommended carrying 6 with the hammer on the "safety notch". They were selling the majority of their SAAs to the Ordnance Department. And the military (mostly Army) at that time utilized full flap holsters which: (a) when secured prevented the revolvers from bouncing out and landing on the hammer and; (b) somewhat protected the hammer from unintended blows from things like stirrups, etc.

Second, when I lived in Tucson, AZ I knew an old retired Border Patrolman who grew up in California. His family's next door neighbor was retired and a former Texas Ranger, named Ira Aten. As a young boy my friend spent a fair amount of time hanging around the told ranger and asked him lots of questions about being a Ranger in the Texas border country. When asked about carrying 6 rounds in a SAA, the old Patrolman told me Aten said pretty much what John Wayne said in the Shootist, i.e. carry five but if you're going into a fight, load six. Now that is third hand information but I believe my friend was relaying what he was told.

Finally, if you can get access to it take a look at the most recent copy of The BLACK POWDER CARTRIDGE News. It has a fascinating article by William P Mapoles about a very interesting 7-1/2" Colt SAA. To quote the article, "The end of the barrel was spotted sticking up out of the dust in the middle of nowhere, 17 miles from Tombstone, 16 miles from Fort Huachuca, and only nine miles north of the Mexican border. It was made in 1884, based on the serial number..." Then a little further on, "Given the clockwise rotation of the cylinder, it had been carried on the empty chamber, then two shots had been fired, and the owner was in the act of cocking the hammer for the third shot, when it fell to the ground."

So, at least one person in the period the OP is asking about carried his SAA with 5 loaded chambers and the hammer resting on and empty chamber.

Dave
 
Dave T.'s anecdotes pretty much mirror
what I have surmised and said in an earlier
posting: Actual regular users of the
SAA such as a Texas Ranger learned
soon anough about the gun's safety
notch weakness.

Another point I don't believe has been made
is that the "steel" of the middle/late 19th
Century was more iron-like and soft, the
strength no where near today's steel.
Breakage was much more prone. I have
a very good gunsmith friend who has mentioned
this when working on 19th century firearms
and even those well into the 20th.

The WWII 1911A1 is no where near as strong
as a modern day Colt Government Model. In
fact nearly all reputable firearms manufacturers
today use steels far superior than 70 years ago.
 
Another point I don't believe has been made
is that the "steel" of the middle/late 19th
Century was more iron-like and soft, the
strength no where near today's steel.
Breakage was much more prone. I have
a very good gunsmith friend who has mentioned
this when working on 19th century firearms
and even those well into the 20th.

Howdy Again

Here are some quotes from Kuhnhausen's The Colt Single Action Revolvers, A Shop Manual, Volumes 1 & 2, regarding the materials used for Colt SAA frames and cylinders:


Frame Material Notes: mid page 70:

1. Early black powder model S.A.A. frames up to about s/n 96,000 (up to about mid 1883) were made of malleable iron.

2. Intermediate S.A.A. frames between approx. s/n 96,000 and 180,000 (mid 1883 to mid 1898) vary but were apparently made of transitional materials generally similar to modern low-medium carbon steels. The lowest carbon content found in intermediate s/n S.A.A. frames tested to date is approx. .0155, indicating the possibility that early formulations of 1015~1018, or higher carbon type steels may have been used in many frames of this era.

3. Although there are exceptions, frames manufactured after s/n 180,000 appear to have been made from medium range carbon steels. The lowest carbon content found in the after s/n 180,000 frames tested was approx. .0213, possibly indicating that 1020~1027 or slightly higher, carbon, or similar steels may have been used in these frames.


Bottom of page 71:

(1) 1st Generation S.A.A. cylinder material changes began to occur at about the same time that S.A.A. frames were being metallurgically updated. Cylinders prior to approx. s/n 96,000 (mid 1883) were made from materials generally resembling high grade malleable iron. Original cylinders from approx. s/n 96,000 to about 180,000 (mid 1898) were made from transitional low/medium grade carbon type steels. These cylinders and their parent frames were not factory guaranteed for smokeless powder cartridges. Cylinders after frame s/n 180,000 (mid 1898) began to be made from medium carbon type steels. Later versions of these cylinders were better and more uniformly heat treated. S.A.A. revolvers with cylinders of this final type were factory guaranteed in 1900 for standard factory load smokeless powder cartridges.


(2) 1st Generation 357 Magnum cylinders were made from fine grade, higher tensile strength ordnance quality gun steel. These cylinder blanks, identified by a 5 pointed star imprinted on the front, turn up on other caliber S.A.A.’s made during, and after 1935. (The 357 Magnum was introduced in 1935.)

So as Kuhnhausen noted, very early SAA frames and cylinders, up to 1883, were not made of steel at all, rather they were made from malleable iron. Just as the cylinders and frames were in all the early Colt Cap & Ball revolvers.

Don't be confused by the term malleable iron. Not the same as cast iron or pig iron, malleable iron was iron that had all the impurities removed, and as the term denotes, it was malleable, meaning it could be heated and 'worked', or hammered into shape. Cast Iron and Pig Iron, such as a blacksmith's anvil is made from, cannot be 'worked'. These forms of iron have impurities left in them from the casting process and have much lower tensile strength than malleable iron. Malleable iron was not as strong as the steels that Colt was using later on, but it was plenty strong enough for the frames and cylinders of the Black Powder era of cartridges.

As a side note, the iron cylinders of the Colt Walker model are often blamed for the few surviving examples. Iron cylinders, coupled with the Walker Colts enormous powder capacity, close to 70 grains if I recall correctly, often resulted in the cylinders blowing up.
 
We’re talking about actors here. Have you watched Kevin Costner’s reload in Open Range? It’s painful.
Just watching Kevin Costner act with guns is painful. LOL

That movie could have been so much better with almost any good actor playing that part. The storyline and Robert Duvall is what makes that movie worth watching.
 
Howdy again

Following up on a previous post. It was suggested to me that resting the firing pin between rims of a Colt revolver with the early Benet primed, copper cased ammunition the Army was using in 1873 would be a good way to load a Colt with all six chambers, owing to the fact that the Benet primed ammo had much smaller rims than modern 45 Colt ammo. It was suggested that with the smaller rims of the Benet primed ammo, the firing pin could prevent a cylinder from turning.

Nope.

Here is a 2nd Gen cylinder loaded with six rounds of Benet primed, copper cased 45 Colt ammunition, of the type the Army was using in 1873. Still not enough space between rims for the firing pin to bottom on the face of the cylinder.

pmwsNIG4j.jpg




For a comparison, here is the photo I posted earlier showing a 2nd Gen cylinder with six rounds of modern 45 Colt ammo.

po4qMGm1j.jpg




SAAMI spec for modern 45 Colt rim diameter is .512. The rims of the Benet primed ammo are truly tiny, running around .503-.504 in diameter. Still, even with the smaller rims, I was still not able to rest the firing pin between rims so that it prevented the cylinder from turning. You can't see it in the photo, but there is a nice, shiny spot on one of the antique copper rims where I tried.

For those not familiar with Benet priming, it was an early form of centerfire priming developed at the Frankford Arsenal. The cases were formed from copper, not brass. Priming was internal, with the priming compound pressed between the rear of the case and an anvil plate, which was secured at the base of the cartridge with a crimp. From the rear, these rounds appeared to be rimfire, but they were not. The firing pin would distort the copper base of the round, compressing and igniting the priming material against the interior anvil plate. The flame generated would pass through two holes in the anvil plate to ignite the Black Powder charge.

pnk54uT9j.jpg




Here is a cutaway view of some Benet primed rounds. The one on the left is 45 Colt, the two in the center and on the right are 45 Schofield. Another round has been sectioned to show the way the anvil plate was pressed into the bottom of the round. These rounds always had the large crimps at the bottom holding the anvil plate in place. Unlike Boxer priming, Benet primed ammunition was not reloadable, they could only be fired once.

pnIRvdUMj.jpg




On a side note, the early copper cased, Benet primed 45-70 ammunition for the early Trapdoor rifles was problematic because the soft copper cases did not have any 'memory'. Unlike brass cases, once fired the copper cases remained expanded in the chamber, and the extractors of the Trapdoors often tore through the soft rims, jamming the rifle.

Why were early 45 Colt rims so small?

Because all they had to do was keep the round from being shoved forward into the chamber when struck by the firing pin. It does not take a very large rim to do this. Ejection was always done with the Ejector Rod under the barrel that poked the empties out from the inside. Which incidentally is why 45 Schofield rims have always been larger in diameter than 45 Colt rims, to allow the extractor of the Schofield model to get a good grip on the rims for extraction.

Rifles were NEVER chambered for 45 Colt until the modern era, so a large rim on the 45 Colt cartridge was not necessary to extract empties from the chamber of a rifle.
 
Just watching Kevin Costner act with guns is painful. LOL

That movie could have been so much better with almost any good actor playing that part. The storyline and Robert Duvall is what makes that movie worth watching.
I'd like to see a western where the actors spent as much time building shooting skill as Tom Cruise did for Collateral and Keanu Reeves did for John Wick. Although Russell Crowe was pretty good in 3:10 to Yuma and Ben Foster had obviously spent some time with his Schofields.
 
When I was in high school one of my classmates father was killed by dropping a loaded revolver from the top shelf of a closet. I have a full appreciation of transfer bars and hammer blocks and no use for "notches" whatever they call them.
 
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