The Benefits of FOF Training

Nice. Hits on the value of all the basics that the motoring public might not realize are there to be known.

A properly structured and supervised FoF session will get your blood pumping.

It will also help to illustrate and reinforce all the right things that have been ingrained by previous good training, and point out any inadequacies in training, bad habits, lack of awareness, etc. Humbling, and yet exhilarating.

Nice little article. Good stuff.

Frankly, I'm getting tired of listening to folks who claim to religiously pack their favorite EDC handgun, yet continue making excuses for never getting training. And FoF is so useful, that if you've gone through some qualify FoF training, you immediately realize that those who've never done it, simply don't know what they don't know.

Going out to one's local pit, club or indoor range and punching holes in paper target may assist one in improving one's accuracy with a handgun, but it accomplishes next to nothing in preparing one for an actual gunfight.

For vast numbers of individuals whom are not military or law enforcement training is simply not a priority. For others training is a priority. Not everyone wants to be a warrior. Each to their own applies.

Hangingrock said:

For vast numbers of individuals whom are not military or law enforcement training is simply not a priority. For others training is a priority. Not everyone wants to be a warrior. Each to their own applies.

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So, basically... carry a handgun because it makes one feel safer, but have no idea how one will react in a dynamic situation where one's life (or the life of another) may be in dire jeopardy. Got it.

It has nothing to do with wanting to be a warrior. Just because one owns a fire extinguisher or two doesn't mean one wants to be a firefighter. But when the time comes, one better damn well know how it works in real life, not just in theory.

I'm actually starting to believe that a large part of it is... ego.

Seems an awful lot of folk in our community believe that having a gun on one's person is the key; many seem to subscribe to that notion

Jeff White said:

“thousands, maybe millions of people with no training what so ever successfully defend themselves every year”

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and thus want to believe that training is an optional thing...

But some of us who've actually been in the doo-doo believe otherwise. I've never met a single soul in the military or law enforcement (or a civilian involved in a bad situation) who's said: "Gosh, I wish I'd had less training."

Appears many, though, would just as soon spend their hard-earned income on $75,000 trucks and SUVs, ATVs, boats, guns, gear, clothing, big-a$$ flat-screen HD TVs, I-Phone 37s (or whatever number they're up to now), anything tangible but little that improves their personal capabilities for survival (and this goes for prepping as well).

The article ranks among the best I have read in a long time during which much published conceptual advice has been alarmingly not well thought out and poorly written. It was truly a pleasure to see a published article of such high caliber. Right is right, and the author is right.

I would have benefited from such simulated FOF training in Nam. Back then there was no technology for simulating such combat. We shot blanks at imaginary enemy forces. It accustomed us to the noise and helped damage our hearing as we had no hearing protection. Still it had some limited value, because it prepared you to deal with not being able to hear commands, warnings, etc while shooting it out with opponents. Training prepares one even if only in limited ways.

However the reality is that most gun owners will not have the benefit of FOF training because it is not readily available in all locales, and it could be unaffordable for some or many in terms of time and/or money. The other limiter is physical condition. I am 79, in good health, but I have arthritis in both hands and two damaged/inoperable rotator cuffs. I could not get through FOF training without a lot of discomfort and residual pain as I waited for the inflammation to subside. So what is my alternative? It is to heed the advice every Marine gets: “follow your training.” While my training is now 60 years past, it still applies, and so I rely on it.

Master sergeant Post served in the infantry in WW 2 and Korea. He had two Purple Hearts and two Bronze Stars. That was reassuring because we knew he had the experience to train us. In his words this is what he told us. “In close-quarter-combat there are three vital attributes: speed, accuracy, and capacity.” He said that those were in order of importance, and then he gave us his reasons for the statement. I am now paraphrasing his comments.

Speed is critical because you have to shoot before the enemy or maybe get shot. It is initially more important than accuracy. Getting a shot or two off quickly can momentarily disorient you opponent.

Accuracy is critical because you cannot hurt them unless you hit them so so a less accurate but fast first shot(s) must be almost instantly followed by well placed multiple shots. He used to say “soot them until they fall down. Then shoot them again.”

Capacity provides options. The most important of which are two: fighting multiple opponents, and providing your own cover fire in what we called shooting and scooting. As a combat photographer my primary weapon was a M1911. I would have preferred to have the then non-existent M9. Capacity is why I switched my EDC from LC9S to Security 9 Compact with 15 round magazine plus a spare. In today’s’ deteriorating world I think the possibility of encountering multiple opponents is growing. Therefore my tactical thinking has changed so has my training. I now go to the range twice a month, and I work on speed and accuracy in thirty-one round exercises. New challenges met with old training.

GEM said:

https://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/take-it-force-on-force-personal-defense-training-for-civilians/

This is an excellent review of FOF training.It should be a cautionary read so much of what we see on gun forums where the emphasis is on this gun or that, this round or that - with the standard being some square range group. Carry rotations, COS play choice of guns, Dunning-Kruger views of how you will win with a small gun that you don't practice with. True, many interactions have no shots fired or the bad person runs away. But what if they don't and it is an intense situation?

The article points out the FOF can sting. I can attest to that. Sims, paint balls (used realistically) or airsoft leave you bruised and break the skin. Surprise, you can miss the target. Surprise, here's a shooter you didn't know was there.

We know most people don't train at all and it works in the low intense scenario quite a bit. So what. Most doctor visits are low intensity. The doc pokes you a bit and gives you an Rx. It's when you drop dead or almost, that having some more intense training might be could.

With constitutional carry (a theoretical good thing from the rights point of view), will there be even less motivation to train? Probably. It's estimated that the number of competitors in the USA is maybe 38K. I never could get folks who babbled about equipment to train or compete. The most common cause is usual men think there are natural warriors and/or don't want to look stupid when they fail in some 'warrior' situation. Oh, well - that's it for today. Read the article and get out of it what you want, as you pocket your LCP or OC your BP revolver. BTW, as I said repeatedly, I do pocket carry at times due to circumstance but understand the limitations of the gun and put in the training time with it.

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I don’t train or FOF because I’m too ill. It was being ill and knowing I can’t run away from assaults that put the CCW idea in my head (that and moving from Cali to FL)

But thanks for your excellent thread.

I played Airsoft one single time, and just that was enough to teach me that target practice and gunfights are all but irrelevant to each other.

Also videos of cops emptying their mags on traffic stops gone bad, but connecting only once or twice.

anyone know say the top 3 most likely FOF scenarios a civilian could run into? I have no idea what actual scenarios are likely, to be aware of. car jacking, road rage incident, someone pulls a firarms in a convenience store, altercation while out hicking or even walking in town/city possible. but, statistically speaking, what are the most valuable to think about and train for? anyone know? I don't.

YouTube just added (9/12/21) a video of FOF training with Mike Seeklander and the company First Person Defender:
Attack Inside Local Gun Shop | First Person Defender

Good topic.

We often hear, "We fight like we train" but if we don't train ...

Craig_VA said:

video of FOF training with Mike Seeklander and the company First Person Defender

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End of video shows gun store being robbed by "bad guys" with pistols (That we can see, may be there is spotter/get away driver that we can't see).

Once "good guy" starts shooting, after 10 rounds slide locks and he is out of rounds but the two bad guys are still holding pistols and on their feet moving around. Unless good guy has spare magazine that he can reload quickly, he is toast.

This is "lethal pause" that Federal District Judge Benitez pointed out in Duncan v Becerra where gun owner can be killed because he was limited by 10 round magazine capacity.