Paul Harrell: Using a car as cover

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Autodidactic

Autodidactic

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This may have been posted before, but I think it is interesting evidence for how much cover a normative commuter car may provide in the face of gunfire. Even non-gun owners may find this interesting. I know most on here already know these facts, especially military or police. But I think a lot of newer gun owners or those interested in self-defense may not.



In the video, Paul tests a range of calibers and guns in their penetration of a basic commuter car, including using water jugs on the opposite side. Interestingly, virtually every caliber penetrates through the sides except if they hit the metal cross beams or other structures. The main exception was shotgun bird shot. Buck shot went through one side but very little went through the other side. If being fired upon and taking cover using a car, he advises hiding behind the engine, as it's the only area highly likely to protect you.

 
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I didn't watch the videos because I am not a Paul Harrell fan. Using a car for cover is not a new idea. A car has been used since cars were invented. Look at some of the LE cars developed in the late 1920s and early 30s for chaisng and shooting at Bootleggers. Cars with gun ports in the front windows and bullet proof glass. Stay behind the engine or behind the tires/wheels and you have decent cover.

And before there were cars the Pioneers circled the wagons and rolled buckboards on there sides to stop the arrows from there feathered attackers.
 
I watched that video a while back and was surprised as to what calibers would or would not penetrate. Unfortunately movies are where far too many people get their "knowledge" of guns and their capabilities.
 
ThomasT said:
I didn't watch the videos because I am not a Paul Harrell fan. Using a car for cover is not a new idea. A car has been used since cars were invented. Look at some of the LE cars developed in the late 1920s and early 30s for chaisng and shooting at Bootleggers. Cars with gun ports in the front windows and bullet proof glass. Stay behind the engine or behind the tires/wheels and you have decent cover.

And before there were cars the Pioneers circled the wagons and rolled buckboards on there sides to stop the arrows from there feathered attackers.
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Perhaps you should have watched the videos, since nothing you wrote addresses the OP.
 
George Dickel said:
I watched that video a while back and was surprised as to what calibers would or would not penetrate. Unfortunately movies are where far too many people get their "knowledge" of guns and their capabilities.
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Agreed, it’s a good video. I was surprised that .22lr appeared to do as well per pellet as buck shot, but that’s likely because of the shape and grains of 00.
 
I went to school with a kid who repoe'd cars in his dads Repo business and he showed me a briefcase he put between himself and the drivers door with a steel plate in the briefcase. One day he brought it to school and showed me the bullet hole in the case from the night before when the car owner shot at him as he was driving away. This was in the early 1970s. So I have known for a while cars were not the best for stopping bullets.

I have shot at junk cars a few times and they only offer the minimum of bullet protection.
 
NIGHTLORD40K said:
Knowing that a standard car door provides virtually no ballistic protection, Ive often wondered if any LE agencies at least put a plate inside the drivers door shell for cover during a traffic stop. Wouldn't cost that much and would seem to be a fairly easy install.
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Not in any of the old Crown Vic, Charger, Durango, or Explorer patrol vehicles I've worked on.

If using a car for cover, try not to park beside the problem. Using the whole length of the car will be a better barrier than the width.
 
NIGHTLORD40K said:
Knowing that a standard car door provides virtually no ballistic protection, Ive often wondered if any LE agencies at least put a plate inside the drivers door shell for cover during a traffic stop. Wouldn't cost that much and would seem to be a fairly easy install.
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I've thought of this too. I guess some cars are armored such as for politicians with Secret Service protection and even CEO's in developing countries.

There must be companies where one can buy reinforced doors or panels due to these needs. I assume they don't come cheap if well made.

Howland937 said:
Not in any of the old Crown Vic, Charger, Durango, or Explorer patrol vehicles I've worked on.

If using a car for cover, try not to park beside the problem. Using the whole length of the car will be a better barrier than the width.
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That makes sense. In the second video I posted he goes into ways to pull up to a gun fight, using the car, and ways that expose one more.
 
NIGHTLORD40K said:
Knowing that a standard car door provides virtually no ballistic protection, Ive often wondered if any LE agencies at least put a plate inside the drivers door shell for cover during a traffic stop. Wouldn't cost that much and would seem to be a fairly easy install.[/QUOT


Properly done you not using the door itself you are using the unibody frame that the door is mounted to. A few more layers of support. That being said part of that is Hollywood. Like others have mentioned the whole length of the body with an engine block between you and the threat. I would still be looking for an exit and distance. I am from the “If you ain’t moving shooting or reloading your dead”. school of thought.
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HPJeep said:
I came across junked cars in the middle of nowhere Wyoming while rabbit hunting back in the 80s. Surprised that 22s went through the doors of these 1950s cars.
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My brother and I came across a "freshly" dumped car while rabbit hunting as well (This was back when Regan was President). The engine had been pulled but the windows were in tact. The bunnies got a break that day. Yep, .22s will penetrate a car body. We came back several times with shotguns and centerfire rifles. Lots of good clean fun! The videos Mr. Harrell made are relevant and educational for those who don't have the opportunity/luck to conduct original research like my brother and I did.
 
mokin said:
My brother and I came across a "freshly" dumped car while rabbit hunting as well (This was back when Regan was President). The engine had been pulled but the windows were in tact. The bunnies got a break that day. Yep, .22s will penetrate a car body. We came back several times with shotguns and centerfire rifles. Lots of good clean fun! The videos Mr. Harrell made are relevant and educational for those who don't have the opportunity/luck to conduct original research like my brother and I did.
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I'm jealous of these found junk cars to shoot up.
 
Cars, especially modern ones, are a real crapshoot when it comes to penetration. The doors have a lot of stuff in them. Electric motors, gears, window, reinforcing pieces, etc... The pillars area really tough as well. Obviously the motor and transmission will stop pretty much anything short of cannons. Windshields can be surprisingly effective.

Like Howland said, you want to use the car lengthwise for best results.
 
doubleh said:
I believe hiding behind a car would be preferable to standing out in the open or hiding behind a bush. At least what ever makes it through the car would be going a lot slower. :D
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Right, some cover especially metal or even wood is better than none. Also, I forget the term for it but there is cover that is meant to make it hard to see and target you easily, even if the cover itself is minimally protective. I guess a car can serve that too to a small degree.
 
C-grunt said:
Cars, especially modern ones, are a real crapshoot when it comes to penetration. The doors have a lot of stuff in them. Electric motors, gears, window, reinforcing pieces, etc... The pillars area really tough as well. Obviously the motor and transmission will stop pretty much anything short of cannons. Windshields can be surprisingly effective.

Like Howland said, you want to use the car lengthwise for best results.
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Autodidactic said:
I've thought of this too. I guess some car
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Autodidactic said:
Right, some cover especially metal or even wood is better than none. Also, I forget the term for it but there is cover that is meant to make it hard to see and target you easily, even if the cover itself is minimally protective. I guess a car can serve that too to a small degree.
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Youre probably thinking of cover vs concealment. :thumbup:
 
Modern training is leaning towards the pillars of the vehicles providing better protection. Engine blocks aren't what they used to be and most gunfights near vehicles end up at the rear of the vehicle instead of the front. He didn't address any of this in his video. I would have liked to see what bullets would have penetrated the A, B, or C pillars of either vehicle. From an LE perspective we normally have the vehicle facing threat, it makes sense to fight from the rear if the threat is to the front of the vehicle.
 
cadet3 said:
Modern training is leaning towards the pillars of the vehicles providing better protection. Engine blocks aren't what they used to be and most gunfights near vehicles end up at the rear of the vehicle instead of the front. He didn't address any of this in his video. I would have liked to see what bullets would have penetrated the A, B, or C pillars of either vehicle. From an LE perspective we normally have the vehicle facing threat, it makes sense to fight from the rear if the threat is to the front of the vehicle.
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Interesting. The thing is, aren’t the pillars slim on many vehicles?
 
Autodidactic said:
Interesting. The thing is, aren’t the pillars slim on many vehicles?
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You want as much of the vehicle between you and the shooter as possible. If the shooter is to the left front of the vehicle you want to take cover at the right rear. This puts as much steel, aluminum, plastic and other materials between you and the shooter as possible.
 
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