Article: Are there really this many Ghost Guns?

skippy1729 said:

Hundreds? In NYC? Doesn't seem like a high number to me.

Click to expand...

Yep, and in a city of 8 or 10 million folks. As I have written here before, no gang banger will go to the trouble of buying the components and acquire the expertise and place to execute his build. He simply goes up to his corner in the South Bronx and buys one.

Plus the word "Ghost Gun" has a mystique about it.

Just a few years ago, there are at least four forums dedicated to AK builds, and many general gun forums had subforums for it. Parts kits ranged from $60 to $125 in "the good old days" and an entire industry popped up selling flats, tools, and compliance parts.

Since they were imported as scrap metal there was no legislative requirement to keep count of them. I wouldn't be surprised if the number of homebuilt "ghost" AKs is between a hundred thousand and a quarter million. And then there were the Suomis - you used to get a Suomi kit free with an AK kit - the Stens, the Brens, the G3s, the FALs... each with their own forums and support industries.

Anyone remember sears.com? They sold AK flats and compliance parts.

gifbohane said:

Yep, and in a city of 8 or 10 million folks. As I have written here before, no gang banger will go to the trouble of buying the components and acquire the expertise and place to execute his build. He simply goes up to his corner in the South Bronx and buys one.

Plus the word "Ghost Gun" has a mystique about it.

Click to expand...

I don't know about NYC, but here in N.C. I know a few "thugs" who bought polymer 80 kits and built a few "ghost guns". If a nineteen year old high school dropout wanna be drug dealer can build one, anyone can.

The Last Outlaw said:

I don't know about NYC, but here in N.C. I know a few "thugs" who bought polymer 80 kits and built a few "ghost guns". If a nineteen year old high school dropout wanna be drug dealer can build one, anyone can.

Click to expand...

You are correct in that anyone can build an 80% pistol. But getting the thing to function 100% and do so safely is another story all together. Go to Glock Talk or the Marine Gun Builder forums and you will see that it isn't as easy to make safe and reliable pistols as the media makes it out to be.

Heck the ATF agent involved in the Polymer 80 raid took at least 3 1/2 hours to complete a kit and it did NOT function. Yes if fires - as a single shot.


And by the left's and media's definition, any firearm made prior to the 1968 Gun Control Act is a "ghost gun" since serial numbers were not required before 1968. The Term "ghost gun" is the new "assault weapon" term used to scare the uneducated into believing guns ar evil.

I wasn't talking about what the media says, I was talking about what I have seen myself. This kid has made a couple kits, both of the ones I have seen fire just like a gun made by a manufacturer. this kid dropped out of school in the month grade, never had a job, never had any training of any kind. Just watched a few YouTube videos and went to town.

All I am saying is, from personal experience, I know that it can be done by almost anyone with a drill and a jig.

The Last Outlaw said:

I wasn't talking about what the media says, I was talking about what I have seen myself. This kid has made a couple kits, both of the ones I have seen fire just like a gun made by a manufacturer. this kid dropped out of school in the month grade, never had a job, never had any training of any kind. Just watched a few YouTube videos and went to town.

All I am saying is, from personal experience, I know that it can be done by almost anyone with a drill and a jig.

Click to expand...

I will not argue the issue since I think that it is a made up problem and given a catchy name. But one dirt bag with tenacity does not indicate an epidemic.

Likely made up numbers per usual. Media cannot be trusted

gifbohane said:

I will not argue the issue since I think that it is a made up problem and given a catchy name. But one dirt bag with tenacity does not indicate an epidemic.

Click to expand...

Exactly! And even if it were thousands of dirtbags, here’s a thought: go after the dirtbags.

STOP CALLING THEM GHOST GUNS.

Who are you, a Lefty Senator from CA? What's next a 30 caliber clip in half a second or the shoulder thing that goes up!?

And if we really want to talk real production numbers on firearms, it would put the fear of God into any tyrant or commie here on our shores.

I was at a meeting this past weekend with about 80 cops from all over the country. I asked several of them from various areas if they encounter what the media is referring to as 'ghost guns' and they all said "no". That's not a scientific polling, but it told me that the media is probably pushing an inflated agenda. Have 80% pistols been used in crimes? I'm sure they have. So have Toyota Corollas. But no one so far as I know have called for banning Corollas.

We wouldn't want our opponents to dismiss our claims based on personal bias, so we're not going to get anywhere dismissing the alleged "ghost gun" issue in the same manner (i.e. "media bias" or random conversations with police officers).

On another thread I mentioned our new local (San Diego) "ghost gun" ordinance voted in by our city council. More germane to this topic, and particularly to the notion that there isn't any evidence to support an uptick in "ghost gun" crimes, etc., is this document which was submitted to the author of the ban directly from LE. The point of this isn't to debate the ordinance, but to present the document upon which it was based --one with at least some data to dissect. Take from it what you will.

The folks that are attacking "ghost guns" are also attacking the "ghost press/media" (any platform that they cannot control or censor).
I wonder if there is a connection... .

The Left would lose their proverbial S*** if they knew that there are most likely upwards of 5 million or more AR-15s alone that have been built on 80% lowers.

This doesn't count complete rifles sold, or uppers and lowers sold separately and then assembled. This is why I believe the number of black rifles to be in excess of 30 million.

https://www.police1.com/patrol-issu...guns-dedicates-special-team-ze9dh9d1W5PmEduW/

So far in 2021, the NYPD has recovered 135 ghost guns and 45 frames — figures that lead police to believe they’ll find more than the previous high of 145 last year.

Click to expand...

Question - focusing on the Poly 80s. If they had to be sold through a FFL with a NICS check - would they sell?

GEM said:

https://www.police1.com/patrol-issu...guns-dedicates-special-team-ze9dh9d1W5PmEduW/



Question - focusing on the Poly 80s. If they had to be sold through a FFL with a NICS check - would they sell?

Click to expand...

No.

But that wouldn't stop people, nor should it, from building their own receivers and frames.

ClaymoreAKM said:

The Left would lose their proverbial S*** if they knew that there are most likely upwards of 5 million or more AR-15s alone that have been built on 80% lowers.

Click to expand...

I seriously doubt it's that many. Also, the number of "80%" lowers sold is larger than the number built. Lots of them are being kept in an unfinished state.

AlexanderA said:

I seriously doubt it's that many. Also, the number of "80%" lowers sold is larger than the number built. Lots of them are being kept in an unfinished state.

Click to expand...

I've spent many years studying it. If anything, my numbers are low. We're looking at over a decade of very high AR production, with 9 years of elevated production before that.

For one, just one company shipped 100,000 uppers a year after Sandy Hook. that's just one company. Believe it or not, there are actually many shooters who have milled out hunks of 7075 into receivers, I've seen beer cans melted down into both lowers and uppers.

It's a Khyber Pass out there...

Here, you go. Weapons Man sadly passed a number of years ago, but he had studied the subject extensively. Keep in mind this information is over 5 years old.

https://bearingarms.com/bobowens-bearingarms/2016/10/25/told-600-million-guns-united-states-n27665

A few years ago, Weaponsman's site when under, so that info is gone. but they had extensively discussed 80%s and how far more uppers are built than lowers by many companies (PSA, BCM, etc.), and many parts are bought individually to be completed into finished uppers, not hard at all, all you need is an Armorer's wrench and some punches and a hammer.

Lowers are even easier. And there are many CNC and milling machines in shops all across the country. Lots of guys have garage shops fully capable of milling AR parts.

Really the only hard thing is barrels. And some guys brew their own.

The Toyota diesel pickup truck is the tactical assault vehicle of choice of the Taliban, Somali rebels, ISIS terrorists.
Ravi Somaiya, "Guerrilla Trucks: Why Rebel Groups Love the Toyota Hilux", Newsweek, 14 Oct 2010.
We need to get these Assault Vehicles off the streets of America (and monitor their registered owners as terrorists).
For the children.

Do you want to push the car analogy as I have to register my car and get a license to drive on city streets?

Years ago, Al Gore proposed that since you have to get a license to drive, you should have to get a license to own a gun.

Now in NYS, it wasn't that easy to get a handgun license. You were usually denied even if you were a law abiding citizen. Thus, I wrote a letter to the NYTimes asking if every law abiding citizen then could get a license to own a handgun as easily as a driver's license and a car registration.

Got an email that they were going to publish the letter but then they never did. I assume a higher level editor killed it.

Thus, the car analogy is not useful. So would you buy a Poly 80 kit if it went through a FFL? Or is the purpose to avoid NICS as compared to a hobby?

The car argument stinks. Arguments in general that many 2A advocates make stink. Even the good guy vs a bad guy with a gun.

Why? Because we are simply arguing with tyrants. A better argument is, "Over my dead body and a pile of Hot brass" or "Come and Take it if you dare", better yet "Have enough Body Bags?". Stop arguing from the position of a cowering sheep, and take the position of strength.

The 2A was meant to keep tyranny in check. I don't need to apologize to anyone for keeping arms. Be it for hunting, defense, target, the main underlying reason is to keep those who would make us slaves or worse, in check.

I pray 1000x more unmarked lowers are built. I pray 200 million ARs, AKs, FALs, G3s, etc. are in the hands of liberty-loving Americans 10 years from now.

ClaymoreAKM said:

Why? Because we are simply arguing with tyrants.

Click to expand...

You are misunderstanding the gun control movement. The antigunners are likely to be your well-meaning, but naive, suburban neighbors. Not some sinister would-be tyrants. Tyrants would not need to abolish guns -- they would only need to co-opt the gun owners, enlisting them as their storm troopers.

The flip side of the argument is that anyone that can buy a car should be able to buy a gun... .

Yep, and you then register your car and get a license to drive in the street. You have to get insurance.

Thus, I want a Glock:

1. Did you take your Glock user test (like my ODL test a zillion years ago). Let's take your picture for your Glock user license
2. Here is your Glock, to the the Glock Registration Bureau to register it.
3. At the Glock Registration Bureau, please show us your citizenship, or green card plus your proof of insurance.

Now depending on state you have to go through 1 through 3, except for insurance. That has been proposed repeatedly.

Add the nuance in shall issue states that you give a reason for purchasing your Glock. In some places the reason is pro forma. In some places it is a specific process to block folks from buying and/or carrying. Hence the NYS current suit at Scotus.

The car analogy is not simple.

So are you ok with all the provisions that are the same for getting a driver's license and getting a car, except for producing a reason for wanting a car - shall issue driving?