Old School .357 Magnum Duty Loads

TomT, I might have known your Uncle. I think I can speak a little on old school. I was a Ft. Worth Policeman in the 60's. We were issued a S&W Model 10 (bull barrel) when we graduated the Academy in '68. The older guys were issued the Model 10's with the profiled barrel and the half round front sight. We were on our own for ammo, but we were restricted to a standard factory load of 158 grain round ball ammo. If you were assigned to the Patrol (everybody was fresh from the Academy) you reported to work every day to "roll call". You stood inspection and the sergeants check we were all properly uniformed and sometimes they would check your ammo, so not cheating. They were still using that crappy ammo when I left. They were very concerned about over penetration and wanted to make certain we were using the crappy ammo. Absolutely no .357 mag. We could carry personally owned .357 pistols, but best not to get caught with anything but the crappy ammo. I ventured into Model 19 arena for a while, but after having it banged into a couple of door frames, wet nights, and it flying out of an unsnapped holster in a foot chase, I went back to the department issued pistol.
Later I went to work for the Secret Service. They issued me a 2 1/2 inch Model 19. That's your pistol and the only pistol you will use. They also issued us the ammo we would use. It was a 110 grain .38 spl +P. I think the term +P was invented to describe this round and loading. It was the result of a research project to get the fastest round, least penetration, fastest recovery time for a second shot. They bought a lot of it. They had contract specs for it and all of the other Treasury agencies bought off of the USSS contract. Years later, when I worked for another agency I was buying of of that old contract. That was your ammo, the only ammo you were allowed to use. Over the years it got a lot of "testing" in the real world to see how it worked. The verdict was that it did. I still have some and it still goes bang. I remember the first SuperVels, but we weren't allowed to use them. WD-40 showed up about the same time. If you wanted to ruin your fancy new supervels just spray you pistol down with a liberal dose of WD-40. It was supposed to be the new shinny thing to protect your guns. We would learn later the hard way. That's how it was in the good ole days.

chickasaw_hunter said:

Later I went to work for the Secret Service. They issued me a 2 1/2 inch Model 19. That's your pistol and the only pistol you will use. They also issued us the ammo we would use. It was a 110 grain .38 spl +P. I think the term +P was invented to describe this round and loading. It was the result of a research project to get the fastest round, least penetration, fastest recovery time for a second shot. They bought a lot of it. They had contract specs for it and all of the other Treasury agencies bought off of the USSS contract.

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Maybe this? https://www.shootingtimes.com/editorial/38-special-treasury-load/389102

chickasaw_hunter said:

TomT, I might have known your Uncle. I think I can speak a little on old school. I was a Ft. Worth Policeman in the 60's. We were issued a S&W Model 10 (bull barrel) when we graduated the Academy in '68. The older guys were issued the Model 10's with the profiled barrel and the half round front sight. We were on our own for ammo, but we were restricted to a standard factory load of 158 grain round ball ammo. If you were assigned to the Patrol (everybody was fresh from the Academy) you reported to work every day to "roll call". You stood inspection and the sergeants check we were all properly uniformed and sometimes they would check your ammo, so not cheating. They were still using that crappy ammo when I left. They were very concerned about over penetration and wanted to make certain we were using the crappy ammo. Absolutely no .357 mag. We could carry personally owned .357 pistols, but best not to get caught with anything but the crappy ammo. I ventured into Model 19 arena for a while, but after having it banged into a couple of door frames, wet nights, and it flying out of an unsnapped holster in a foot chase, I went back to the department issued pistol.

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If you worked for the Ft Worth PD in 1968 I am sure you knew my uncle. His name was Alvin Joseph Tiroff. Everyone called him Joe. Or "The Mad Russian". The man he killed on duty was named Earl Gratts. My uncle walked into a domestic dispute between Gratts and his wife in the Como area off Camp Bowie Blvd. Gratts shot two shots at my uncle before he even knew there was trouble. One shot went right through his hat and knocked it off of his head. The first shot was right beside the right side of his head and filled his eye with powder debris which partially blinded him for the moment..

Then Gratts jumped my uncle from behind. Joe told me he drew his gun and stuck it over his right shoulder until he hit resistance and with his thumb in the trigger guard he fired one round. Gratts dropped at his feet in a puddle. Gratts wife shoved my uncle backwards and since his feet were held by the body on the ground he fell backwards and hit his head on the asphalt and was knocked out. He came to as Gratts widow was on top of him try to chew his ear off. Joe fired one more shot and took the nipple off her right tit. She got off of him.

He said he got up off the ground and there were about 50 blacks standing in a line between him and his car. He walked over, picked up his hat and started towards the car. He said the crowd parted like Moses and the Red Sea. He got on the radio and called in and said "I believe I have shot some people". Within just a couple of minutes there were cops everywhere. Someone in the crowd picked up Gratts gun. Since he only fired two shots they figured it was a 2 shot Derringer that he used.

Joe told me his bullet ranged down through the right lung, through the liver, hit the spleen went through the guts and ended up in the buttocks area. Pretty good penetration. Very similar damage that the RNL bullet did to Oswald from Ruby's gun. People PooPoo the RNL bullet as weak but its not. Its just that now there are much better bullets. But if for some reason you were restricted to just RNL or FMJ ammo you are NOT unprotected. Its still a bullet and has more than enough power to shoot a chunk of lead deep in a body or completely through it.

ThomasT , I’ll be the first to thank you for sharing that story. I’m sure it took a bit to type all of that and be accurate doing so with all of those details. That’s some story!
Something to keep in mind, Way back then… Ammo was a good bit hotter than today’s,I’m willing to bet. Who knows on the Bh of the lead. However,A Fairly firm lead 158gr? Bullet around 10bh and about 900 fps would certainly penetrate dearly at Point blank range. I believe the 38spl is often regarded as under powered and the modern greater 9mm of today is touted as the ultimate. PooPoo on that, I’ll take a good old plus p 38spl 158gr (Or 357!) over a 9mm. Your story is One helping reason why.

Ps- Your Uncle must of been a good shot, Takin just a Nip off…. Well ,thats a small target

Lnf Crzr said:

Ps- Your Uncle must of been a good shot, Takin just a Nip off…. Well ,thats a small target

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Actually she was laying on top of him trying to chew his ear off. She had already bit a chunk out of his stomach. He said he didn't really remember too much about the nipplectomy. He was still groggy from hitting his head. It was a lucky shot.

Later he would work extra hours as a rent-a-cop at a popular Mall called Seminary South off I-35. He said she would come in the mall and see him and start running her mouth at him. The cops like all cops had a nickname for her. They called her "one hung low" because of the size and weight difference.

You want to see what real 38 Special used to be loaded to and what it felt like to shoot it find some S&B 158gr RNL loads. Its impressively hot stuff that IS NOT labeled+P. I have two boxes left. It makes my factory Remington 158gr SWC loads feel like target wadcutters.

TomT, I'm sorry to say I don't specifically remember your Uncle. I sure worked the Lake Como area some, but most of my time was spent in a novel new idea of a footpatrol in the Evans & Rosedale area. At the time the highest crime rate area in the city and with a higher murder rate than Chicago at the time. Ft. Worth was called "Where the West begins." By the army in the 1870's when it actually had a Fort. I was young and looking for excitement. We had plenty.
About the Treasury round, I wasn't going to to in the weeds about it but...well. The Secret Service developed that load to go along with the 2 1/2" Model 19. In '74 they gathered up most of the 4" Model 19's and replaced them with the 2 1/2's. Firearms instructors got to keep the 4" models but had to carry the 2 1/2's. I wasn't an instructor at the time, but when I got to be one they didn't give me a 4" model.
OK, to develop the load they setup a movie camera/s on the range. There was a camera to measure the muzzle flip, muzzle flash, pupil dialation and recovery. And, of course velosity, with some gel test for terminal performance. They would run multiple shooters thru the testing to get a baseline average. After all the measuring and testing was over, the end result is what we came to know as the Treasury round. Back in those days the Treasury had the ATF, Customs, Bureau of Narcotics and Dangerous Drugs, (I'll let you guess what that evolved into). I know I'm probably missing some agencies that was under the umbrella of Treasury in the days of yore. Then most of those other Fed LE agencies came along for the ride with one big exception. The FBI was a agency of it's own and didn't use them that I remember. Back in those days they didn't have much to do with any of the other kids. USSS used a lot of OTA's (Other Treasury Agents) we would have ATF and Customs detailed to us during the Presidential campaigns to supplement our staffing needs. USS also had a lot of overlap with the Postal Inspectors we both investigated the theft and forgery of government checks. I liked working with the Postal Inspectors. Anyway, back on point, the Treasury round lasted for a really long time and was available to order off the GSA contracts by any gov agency. So the USSS policy was this is your pistol, use it and no other. Here is your ammo use it and no other. I didn't have a problem with that since they provided it and at the time were generous with it. In those days USSS SA's were good pistol shots. I never saw anyone shoot less that expert level on many maybe more than half shot the Distinguished Expert class. I still have my little DE pin. It has the image of a S&W M10 on it, I was very proud to get it. Those were shot one handed unsupported using the +P+ wadcutter load. I think it would have been much easier if I could have used a nice anemic target wadcutter load. I don't know how annal they are in today's USSS about firearms training, but in days of yore they were. We had two full time gunsmiths that set up each pistol before you ever laid eyes on them. They would let you have an "off duty" pistol. Mostly Model 36's then later Model 60's, but the gunsmiths had to go thru them before you could carry them. And, you had to carry the Treasury load in them. You had to qualify with them the same time you did your issue pistol. Some offices that was quarterly and some offices every two weeks. Qualifications was an all day chore, sounds fun when you first hear the you'll get paid to shoot all day. But after a time it's just another part of the job. You had to shoot the UZI, two versions of 870's one having a pistol grip and a folding metal stock. Slip up just a little with technique on that thing and you'd be remembering it for a week, every time you tried to flex your wrist. We alway did that one last thing so any pain inflicted wouldn't affect your other qualifications. Anyway, that's the way it was in the days of yore.

Thanks Chickasaw. Interesting information. When my uncle made detective he carried a 2.5" model 19 but I have no idea what ammo he used. And I am familiar with Rosedale street. I grew up on the north end of the Poly area and then later just a couple of blocks north of Rosedale and Tieriny street. My mother still lives there.

When my uncle worked as a Warrant Officer for a while he carried a S&W 645. He said that and robbery were the two most dangerous post because the people to be picked up would fight given the chance. He liked Homicide. He had a collection of murder victim photos he would let me look through as long as the case was closed. A couple of the big cases he worked on were the Ricky Lee Green and Karen Koslow murder.

He shot on several pistol teams and had two walls covered with awards and medals. He was a good shot. He said it sort of aggravated him when we shot together and I outshot him. But he was good with it. I was the son he never had and he was my spare dad. Unfortunately he died nine months to the day after my dad passed away. One of my best friends died in the middle. That was a rough year. Still is when I think about it.

I remember " the " manly .357 Magnum reload was 14.5 grains 2400 under a 158 grain lead hollow point gas checked bullet. That load went high 1300 fps in 6" Pythons and Smiths and was a great deer load and devastating anti personal load. For guns like 2 1/2" .,357 s the load was 15 grains of 2400 under a 125 grain semi jacket HP Bullet. That 125 grain load would touch 1400 fps out of a 2 1/2" Python or Smith and 1425 out of my 2 3/4" Ruger Stainless Security Six ! Six nch barrels 1500 fps !

Gordon said:

I remember " the " manly .357 Magnum reload was 14.5 grains 2400 under a 158 grain lead hollow point gas checked bullet. That load went high 1300 fps in 6" Pythons and Smiths and was a great deer load and devastating anti personal load. For guns like 2 1/2" .,357 s the load was 15 grains of 2400 under a 125 grain semi jacket HP Bullet.

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Did you get hearing aids after each box of those shot, or Just the 125s ?

Gordon said:

I remember " the " manly .357 Magnum reload was 14.5 grains 2400 under a 158 grain lead hollow point gas checked bullet. That load went high 1300 fps in 6" Pythons and Smiths and was a great deer load and devastating anti personal load. For guns like 2 1/2" .,357 s the load was 15 grains of 2400 under a 125 grain semi jacket HP Bullet. That 125 grain load would touch 1400 fps out of a 2 1/2" Python or Smith and 1425 out of my 2 3/4" Ruger Stainless Security Six ! Six nch barrels 1500 fps !

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That’s hotter than I was shooting in a Marlin levergun. Except I was using 180gr and 200gr flat points over my 13.5gr loads. A little more bullet but a lot less powder.

Lnf Crzr said:

Did you get hearing aids after each box of those shot, or Just the 125s ?

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What?