Highland Lofts
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4227 is a good powder to ship to.me.
IMR 4227, what's it good for?
- Thread starter ballman6711
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Believe it was the issue, im hoping being in a warmer climate I dont suffer that so much since its one of the powders I can actually get here that will work in the gun.
Mr_Flintstone
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Unfortunately I don’t have any #9, and I have been unable to find any locally. I’ve been meaning to get some to try in my .357 Mag.
RealGun
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Why post as if I needed correction, when you knew I was literally right? The powders used to be different, but I repeat myself.
Mr_Flintstone
Member
OK. Now we can all sleep peacefully in the knowledge that .223 Remington can be loaded with IMR 4227.
I started with the knowledge that historically IMR 4227 and H4227 were slightly different powders, and that in 2003 Hodgdon purchased IMR and within a short period of time stopped using the original IMR powder formulation. They then replaced the IMR 4227 powder with their own rebranded H4227 powder and stopped selling H4227 branded powder altogether. Why is this important? Because I was using data from the IMR 2001 data sheet. So I then went to my go-to older Hodgdon manual, #25 printed in 1986. This manual didn’t publish either 4227 for .223 Rem, so I went to the .30 Carbine section and compared data between the original IMR 4227 and H4227. Lo and behold they had the same exact load data. So then I checked .357 Magnum, and they too had the same load data. This lead me to the conclusion that even though they were slightly different formulations, they were probably as close as different lots of the same powder. I don’t have any proof of this, but it made enough sense for me to proceed to a load work up with new IMR 4227.
I decided to go with the data published by IMR. It listed only a max of 17 grains with a 55 gr spire point, so I reduced by 10% to 15.3 grains for my beginning load. I felt confident enough to step up by .4 gr each: 15.3, 15.7, 16.1, 16.5, and finally 16.9. I did this to reduce my “out in the rain” time. I then taped a cut out Zesta cracker box (made into a catch basket) to the carry handle of my 16” Palmetto State Armory AR. I then went out to the back yard expecting to have to manually cycle the first couple rounds, but was pleasantly surprised when all five went bang, bang, bang, bang, bang! I then ran back inside to inspect because the rain was coming down.
I saw no ill-effects to the brass, and a quick glance at the Wolf small rifle primers (not magnum) showed flattening, but not excessive. At least I thought so. Here is a picture of all 5 rounds in order left-to-right with a Federal 55 gr fmj on the far right.
Some day when it isn’t raining, I intend to run these loads through my chronograph to see what the velocity is from a 16” barrel. Just guessing, and that’s all it is, I’d say about 2400 FPS, but we’ll see what plays out some other day.
I started with the knowledge that historically IMR 4227 and H4227 were slightly different powders, and that in 2003 Hodgdon purchased IMR and within a short period of time stopped using the original IMR powder formulation. They then replaced the IMR 4227 powder with their own rebranded H4227 powder and stopped selling H4227 branded powder altogether. Why is this important? Because I was using data from the IMR 2001 data sheet. So I then went to my go-to older Hodgdon manual, #25 printed in 1986. This manual didn’t publish either 4227 for .223 Rem, so I went to the .30 Carbine section and compared data between the original IMR 4227 and H4227. Lo and behold they had the same exact load data. So then I checked .357 Magnum, and they too had the same load data. This lead me to the conclusion that even though they were slightly different formulations, they were probably as close as different lots of the same powder. I don’t have any proof of this, but it made enough sense for me to proceed to a load work up with new IMR 4227.
I decided to go with the data published by IMR. It listed only a max of 17 grains with a 55 gr spire point, so I reduced by 10% to 15.3 grains for my beginning load. I felt confident enough to step up by .4 gr each: 15.3, 15.7, 16.1, 16.5, and finally 16.9. I did this to reduce my “out in the rain” time. I then taped a cut out Zesta cracker box (made into a catch basket) to the carry handle of my 16” Palmetto State Armory AR. I then went out to the back yard expecting to have to manually cycle the first couple rounds, but was pleasantly surprised when all five went bang, bang, bang, bang, bang! I then ran back inside to inspect because the rain was coming down.
I saw no ill-effects to the brass, and a quick glance at the Wolf small rifle primers (not magnum) showed flattening, but not excessive. At least I thought so. Here is a picture of all 5 rounds in order left-to-right with a Federal 55 gr fmj on the far right.
Some day when it isn’t raining, I intend to run these loads through my chronograph to see what the velocity is from a 16” barrel. Just guessing, and that’s all it is, I’d say about 2400 FPS, but we’ll see what plays out some other day.
GeoDudeFlorida
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Great info. Cool load work.
Mr_Flintstone
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Had a break in the rain and did a quick chrono test with 5 rounds Hornady 55gr fmj-bt and 16.6 gr IMR 4227.
I got an average velocity of 2656 FPS and an sd of 33.4 from my 16” PSA. Not too bad for something that’s not supposed to work in 223 according to modern reloading manuals.
I got an average velocity of 2656 FPS and an sd of 33.4 from my 16” PSA. Not too bad for something that’s not supposed to work in 223 according to modern reloading manuals.
Charlie98
Member
Looks about right. I plugged those numbers into QuickLoad... pressure doesn't break 40K PSI, and shows a projected muzzle velocity of 2525fps.
Plugging 18grn IMR4227 into it, the pressure jumps to about 45K PSI (projected) at 2700fps, so I would say your actual pressure was likely around 40K PSI, based on your velocity and primers. IMR4227 has a very sharp pressure rise, so I wouldn't likely go much over what you have there.
I am surprised the action cycled for you... good to know.
Plugging 18grn IMR4227 into it, the pressure jumps to about 45K PSI (projected) at 2700fps, so I would say your actual pressure was likely around 40K PSI, based on your velocity and primers. IMR4227 has a very sharp pressure rise, so I wouldn't likely go much over what you have there.
I am surprised the action cycled for you... good to know.
Mr_Flintstone
Member
They may not cycle in every rifle, but every load cycled in my rifle all the way down to 15.3 gr, but the 16.6 gr load failed to lock the bolt open on the last round. I didn't notice this the first time around because I put in a factory load as my last round for a control.
sfl_gunner
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Mr_Flintstone
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I believe those are from the IMR Handloader's Guide from 2001. They used to list IMR 4227 as a load for a lot of rifles. The name IMR literally stands for Improved Military Rifle. But I guess as time passed and companies merged, they stopped listing loads for powders that they deemed less than optimal, and substituted powders that they wanted to push the reloading public to use.
AJC1
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My experience says your correct. Hard even finding unique loads in the current alliant manual for pistol.
Mr_Flintstone
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And Unique works for (almost literally) everything.
GeoDudeFlorida
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I spent some time at the indoor range today (took a mental health day) and one of the loads I was using is 14.4gr. IMR 4227 under a 158gr. Keith-type LSWC made from #2 Alloy and red Carnauba lubed through the (6-1/2") Blackhawk. Always a good load for that gun.
Mr_Flintstone
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That same bullet with about 10 gr IMR4227 in 38 Special rocks a lever action.
Kevin Rohrer
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I use it for .458SOCOM.
GeoDudeFlorida
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I no longer have a .357/.38 lever gun; but, I do have a single shot H&R HandiRifle in .357Max. 10gr in a .38Spl. case with a 158gr hard LSWC. Might have to try that.
ColdSpring
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Close to what I settled on for my Winchester 1873- 11 grains under a 158gr round nose flat point. Using magnum cases, but wanted 38spl pressure for the bulk of it's diet.
GeoDudeFlorida
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11gr - you say that was in a .357Mag. case? That’s a lot of headroom for IMR 4227 What kind of primer and does it tend to have problem with full burn. Fwiw, I always use a SSR primer with 4227 in a .357/.38. It seems to need a little more fire.
ColdSpring
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Have used both CCI 400 & CCI 550. Only had 100 of the SRP & have used them up. Have... let's just say many thousands of the SPMP. Could not discern a difference in accuracy. ~1060 fps from the 16" barrel using the SPMP (wish I had chronographed with the SRP just for comparison's sake). A little bit cleaner with the SRP. Cases are a bit sooty but clean up fine with the same tumbling routine as all other loads. Leaves some soft, fluffy residue in the barrel but is more or less self limiting- looks the same after 200 rounds as after 5, with no loss of accuracy. That's the most I've gone before at least a cursory cleaning. No extra effort in cleaning, all of that soft fluffy stuff is pushed out with the first patch.
Tried that load in two Henry rifles & it was ok at best, but shoots very well from the Winchester. The Henry rifles do well with near max loads of 4227 & 158 grain bullets, though one of them (a single shot) really shines with H110 & 158 grain jacketed bullets.
243winxb
Member
Most all IMR powders are listed in my 1999 IMR powder catalog, for many different cartridges. It works well because its not a ball powder and does not have unneeded additives.
4227 in rifles will just blow the unburnt powder/soot out the muzzle. A 357 mag revolver, with cylinder gap, doesnt help combustion. Shot ok in my 357 with cast, till 2400 became available.
Maximum is listed.
4227 in rifles will just blow the unburnt powder/soot out the muzzle. A 357 mag revolver, with cylinder gap, doesnt help combustion. Shot ok in my 357 with cast, till 2400 became available.
Maximum is listed.
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Mr_Flintstone
Member
As promised, I tried Alliant 2400 powder today. Alliant’s 1995 listed 14.0 gr as max @ 49,900 psi, so I only did three work up loads 12.6, 13.3, and 14.0 gr. Below is a picture of the primers.
They looked about like the IMR 4227, and the cases looked fine.
The chronograph showed an average velocity of 2455 FPS, and an sd of only 14 over 6 rounds at 14 gr, but when each round was fired, the action failed to pick up the next round in the magazine. Obviously it doesn’t produce enough gas even at a max load in order to open the bolt far enough to completely cycle the action.
Maybe by providence, because this is a thread about IMR 4227, it seems to be a much better powder to function in an AR than 2400. I imagine 2400 would make a fine low power bolt gun load, but it’s a no-go at least in my rifle.
They looked about like the IMR 4227, and the cases looked fine.
The chronograph showed an average velocity of 2455 FPS, and an sd of only 14 over 6 rounds at 14 gr, but when each round was fired, the action failed to pick up the next round in the magazine. Obviously it doesn’t produce enough gas even at a max load in order to open the bolt far enough to completely cycle the action.
Maybe by providence, because this is a thread about IMR 4227, it seems to be a much better powder to function in an AR than 2400. I imagine 2400 would make a fine low power bolt gun load, but it’s a no-go at least in my rifle.
Jackiesman
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For what it's worth "shooters reference" site has quite a few different loads for the 223. Covers a lot of different weight/ design bullet and primer options. Good powder, I use quite a bit of it.
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