Unburned powder - Why?

Status
Not open for further replies.
Poper

Poper

Member
Joined
Jun 12, 2006
Messages
2,834
Location
Semi-Free State of Arizona
I am not a high volume pistol shooter, so I will readily admit I am no expert with handguns by any stretch of imagination.
Well, this was the first time I've used IMR4227 in a .38 Special. The load: 9.3 gr. IMR4227, WSPP, RP brass, 158 gr. LSWC, tight crimp. Within 18 rounds, there was enough unburned powder to lock up my 3" Colt King Cobra tight and another 12 rounds through my 3" Ruger GP100 all but locked it up.

What the heck? Is it the short 3" barrels do not allow enough pressure to build to ensure full burning of the powder? I don't have this issue with Bullseye or Clays.
 
Barrel length does not matter that much, peak pressure in most cases is probably achieved before the bullet leaves the cylinder, it's more that 4227 really wants magnum pressures to burn clean. 38 Special is never going to generate the pressure needed to get 4227 to burn clean.
 
IMR-4227 is way to slow for .38 Spl pressures. It struggles to burn completely even at .357 Mag pressure levels, does a bit better in .44 Mag in rifles.

It's a very fast rifle powder, which would be considered very slow for pistol.
 
Poper said:
. . . IMR4227 in a .38 Special.
Click to expand...
IMR4227 doesn't always combust completely in a full-house .357Mag load. . . I'll bet it was half unburnt in .38Spl. You picked an excessively slow powder.

By the way, pressure peaks very early, before the bullet clears the b/c gap, so barrel length has no effect on peak pressure. It has a substantial effect on pressure duration, which can effect combustion efficiency a little.
 
I put the OP's load in quickloads and it is predicting that only about 1/3 of the powder charge will burn before the bullet exits the 3-inch barrel. Peak pressure happens after the bullet has move ~ .3 inches.
 
Win 231 ... 3.5 grains makes a nice plinker load that isn't quite a total mouse fart. 158 grain LSWC load I've used. Reference published load data for your specifics, but - this seems to work for me.
 
Poper said:
Is there a suitable powder, other than Trail Boss, that will fill the case to the base of the 158 gr. LSWC bullet in the .38 Spcl. case?
Click to expand...

Seems like you're looking for a bulky powder for
easy visual checks while loading .38s. I could
suggest a powder for .357 use but even then
you must be precise in the load---too little or just
a bit too much and kaboom very possible.

Since you admit you're not a high volume shooter,
I suggest you just stick with factory .38s.
 
UncleEd said:
Seems like you're looking for a bulky powder for
easy visual checks while loading .38s. I could
suggest a powder for .357 use but even then
you must be precise in the load---too little or just
a bit too much and kaboom very possible.

Since you admit you're not a high volume shooter,
I suggest you just stick with factory .38s.
Click to expand...
And now I'm curious what this powder is that goes 'kaboom' if you use too little or too much.
 
Last edited:
IMO, 4227 is not really powder but flaming dirt. I wore the finish off my chrono with 4227 in 45 Colt, mid 20k pressures about 20 years ago. Never again. Junk powder in a pistol.
 
Poper said:
Well, alrighty, then! Back to Clays and Bullseye we go!
I will keep the 4227 for the .41 Mag.
Thanks, guys!
Click to expand...
HP-38, AA5 and Unique are great .38 Spl. powders, if you can find some you’ll be happy with any of them.

Stay safe.
 
I really didn't like the amount of empty space at first, but apparently it is a non issue for the most party. I just look at the cases in a loading block with a flashlight aimed at an angle after charging them and scan accross the cases to visually check them. I haven't found one yet, but it would be really obvious if there was a double in there.
 
243winxb said:
Always eject shells with muzzle pointing UP. Keeps crud from getting behind the ejector star. View attachment 1050212

Hodgdon has H4227 data for 38 special +p. Not the same as IMR. Not my choice for 38 special, but if that all you got.......
Click to expand...
They are now considered the same. I contacted Hodgdon couple years ago about some IMR4227 data for 357, and that is what they told me
 
Last edited:
Data from old Speer #8 Manual. Known to contain over pressure loads. 1970.

CAUTION: The following post includes loading data beyond currently published maximums for this cartridge. USE AT YOUR OWN RISK. Neither the writer, The High Road, nor the staff of THR assume any liability for any damage or injury resulting from use of this information.

20220107_081410.jpg
38 Special data.
Screenshot_20220107-082806_Chrome.jpg

NOTE: Magnum primer used for IMR 4227.
 
Last edited:
Jonesy814 said:
They are now considered the same. I contacted Hodgkin's couple years ago about some IMR4227 data for 357, and that is what they told me
Click to expand...
^^^This. The "new" IMR4227 is just the "old" H4227 that has been rebranded. The "old" formulation for IMR4227 and the name H4227 have been discontinued. At one time, they were different and Hodgdon/IMR advised not to interchange recipes. When they made the switch, there was little fanfare and no more advice against interchanging recipes.
 
Poper said:
Is there a suitable powder, other than Trail Boss, that will fill the case to the base of the 158 gr. LSWC bullet in the .38 Spcl. case?
Click to expand...
Vihtavuori N32C is about as bulky as Trail Boss, built for the same purpose.
 
  • Like
Reactions: mcb
Only to reiterate what the others have said, 4227 needs pressure and volume. It does well in bigger cartridges, at higher load densities and pressures.
 
40 years hand loading and still learning stuff. Just never occurred to me to use anything but the old stand bys in 38’s. Bullseye, Unique, Red Dot.
Red Dot because I loaded shot shells.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Similar threads

Dewey 68
  • Locked
357 magnum 2400 loads - unburned powder
Replies
21
Views
1K
Charlie98
Charlie98
M
  • Locked
38 special unburned powder...
Replies
2
Views
462
Haxby
H
U
  • Locked
Why the unburned Bullseye in .38 Spl?
Replies
5
Views
679
redneck2
redneck2
D
  • Locked
38 spl and Titegroup
Replies
22
Views
10K
Toprudder
Toprudder
T
  • Locked
Dillon 550 powder charge changing...
Replies
14
Views
1K
D. Manley
D
Back
Top