budget rifles

Bandit67 said:

I have a walnut stock Patriot in .243 and a Ruger American Ranch in .450 Bushmaster. The Mossberg feels less "cheap" but that could be just because of the stock.
I haven't had any problems with either rifle. Both are plenty accurate.
I also have a Browning AB3 in .30-06 which I consider a budget rifle. I like it better than the Patriot or the American.

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If i remember correctly at one time you could buy them other places. Then it was a Cabelas only special. Then Bass Pro after the merger/buyout. They may be selling them elsewhere again?

They also don't have any in stock at Cabelas last i checked.They may be phasing them out? It would not surprise me if they did.

GerryER said:

I had to replace a firing pin spring in one bolt and repaired one rifle by replacing an extractor

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You’re naming some of the failing opportunities yourself.

It’s a machine - it performs specific mechanical functions, and any of them can and do fail.

The bolt action rifle has to index cartridges, feed, fire, extract, and eject. Any of the mechanical features within this mechanism can and do fail with use.

Ejectors break. Extractors brake. Firing pins and striker springs break. Sears wear. Magazine lips fatigue and followers bind, retainers can fail.

If a guy only shoots a box of ammo every fall to sight in for deer season, sure, a bolt action can be trouble free for decades. If a guy uses his rifle, these things go down.

Varminterror said:

You’re naming some of the failing opportunities yourself.

It’s a machine - it performs specific mechanical functions, and any of them can and do fail.

The bolt action rifle has to index cartridges, feed, fire, extract, and eject. Any of the mechanical features within this mechanism can and do fail with use.

Ejectors break. Extractors brake. Firing pins and striker springs break. Sears wear. Magazine lips fatigue and followers bind, retainers can fail.

If a guy only shoots a box of ammo every fall to sight in for deer season, sure, a bolt action can be trouble free for decades. If a guy uses his rifle, these things go down.

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These are all minor repairs that many gunsmiths can do; that is why I wouldn't worry about getting a 783 or other bolt actions for that matter. I have made obsolete parts for different guns, and there are many parts from different guns that are similar enough that they can be modified to fit other guns. Bolt rifles are probably the easiest to work on. There is a MTBF for anything, especially mechanisms, but I expect that bolt actions are among the highest in this respect because they are among the simplest. Just my educated opinion from my experience.

GerryER said:

These are all minor repairs that many gunsmiths can do

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Minor repairs a gunsmith can do at cost - when a better rifle can be bought which also comes with continued support from the OEM so any of these issues would be free warrantable repairs…

The 783 ain’t so great that I’d bother.

Varminterror said:

This is terribly incorrect.

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Since most of the errors root cause is operator errorI would have to say your hypothesis is laid on very unstable ground.

9x56MS said:

Since most of the errors root cause is operator errorI would have to say your hypothesis is laid on very unstable ground.

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Broken extractors, ejectors, firing pins, fatigued mag lips, and dragging followers are not operator errors. Your contest here is non-sequitur.

I have owned a couple Savage Axis rifles. Yeah they work and were the standard for budget bolt actions for years. But there are some better rifles out now for around the same price point. Ruger American has been mentioned. Another option I looked at for awhile was the TC Compass rifles. They come pillar bedded and threaded barrels from the factory. Like most other guns they can be hard to find right now though.

https://www.tcarms.com/firearms/bolt-action-rifles/t-c-compass-rifles/t-c-compass-ii-compact

I really wish the Marlin XS-7 was still around - IMHO it was really a stand-out amongst the budget rifles.

I haven't really handled the Mossberg, and I've fondled the Ruger American in shops but never shot one.

I own quite a number of Savage Axis rifles - in my opinion with a Boyds stock they're an excellent rifle but the original factory polymer stocks are just VERY flimsy. That's not just a knock against polymer stocks in general but those SPECIFIC polymer stocks just have no rigidity. I did try the "epoxy a carbon-fiber arrow into the forearm" trick on one of mine and while it helped, I still don't think it really make it good.

If I were in the market currently I'd probably be looking at the T/C Compass Utility line.

Varminterror said:

…...
The 783 ain’t so great that I’d bother.

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This generally happens when a thread get this long; we lose sight of what the OP stated, "I've been looking at purchasing a new budget level rifle."

Varminterror said:

Broken extractors, ejectors, firing pins, fatigued mag lips, and dragging followers are not operator errors. Your contest here is non-sequitur.

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Add poor machining/off tolerance to the list when CONSIDERING a purchase of a non supported firearm as well.
Ive had extractors die a couple times, seen a broken and bound up striker spring, and multiple magazine related issues....other stuff.

Ive still seen more errors straight from the factory than failures on guns with average use.

I can change a busted extractor, even the annoying riveted in remington ones ( which the 783 thankfully doesn't use), but i cant fix off set scope holes, or badly cut feed rails ( also something to 783 doesn't have).


If you think about it, the bolt action rifle as they stand today only really have one less system in them than your average piston gun, and really the same amount of parts as an AR/ direct impingement.
The energy used to operate the rifle just comes from somewhere else.

Something else to consider, is that a number of key components on budget bolt action rifles are smaller than on other action types.

conan32120 said:

I've been looking at purchasing a new budget level rifle. mossberg patriot or ruger american, I have however found in the reviews that they both have their problems. multiple complaints about trigger lock up on the mossberg and magazine failures on the ruger. I don't hunt so it would just be for banging steel but ....... Any experiences or opinions?

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My experience looking at rifles and complaints is any manufacturer on any given day can send out a bad rifle sans the higher end manufacturers and even they have been known to send out the occasional lemon. Daughter told me son-in-law wanted a rifle with Christmas on the horizon. We normally give the kids a check for Christmas so I told daughter if she wanted to forgo the usual I would look at "budget" rifles. I got a Cabela's flier in the mail and a Black Friday deal had Savage Axis rifles with a rebate and cartridge varied by store. Against my better Black Friday judgement I went to my local Cabela's in Avon Lake, Ohio. I wanted .223 or .308 but all they had was a 7mm-08 which was fine since I load 7mm-08. After rebate all in all it was about $250.00. Considering cost really not a bad rifle at all and for price point a sweet deal. I loaded 50 rounds for it and Merry Christmas. The rifle shoots amazingly accurate and I saw mention of the magazine. Yes, plastic but functional and while the trigger is not great it is adequate. The rifle came with a pre mounted scope and while not a Leupold it works fine. I figure for a first rifle and a starter rifle it was just fine at a very good price for what is in the box.

Ron

conan32120 said:

I've enjoyed and appreciated all the advice and comments but as some have stated availability seriously limits choices. I have found Ruger and Mossberg on those near empty shelves and such is the reason I asked about those two brands. Reading all your comments I am very much leaning towards the Ruger as the only issue anyone has ever made in criticism is the magazine. Please continue the discussion as it is very informing

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The issues with the Ruger magazines can be mitigated by choosing one of the models that accept the AICS magazines, some of which are outstanding, and there's some very good options for serviceable, affordable ones as well.

GerryER said:

This generally happens when a thread get this long; we lose sight of what the OP stated, "I've been looking at purchasing a new budget level rifle."

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The whole point of giving advice is the good and bad. Varminterror’s comment was on topic.

How do you suppose someone should respond when giving advice on a subject they experience with or knowledge of? Leave out the bad so someones feelings don't get hurt?

I doubt people ask for others advice,experience, and/or knowledge if they didn’t want the good and the bad!

conan32120 said:

I've enjoyed and appreciated all the advice and comments but as some have stated availability seriously limits choices. I have found Ruger and Mossberg on those near empty shelves and such is the reason I asked about those two brands. Reading all your comments I am very much leaning towards the Ruger as the only issue anyone has ever made in criticism is the magazine. Please continue the discussion as it is very informing

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Specifically in regards to the Americans... The bolt stops are relatively fragile for the amount of energy they have to stop considering that big bolt being yanked to the rear, or sliding open under their own weight, when the gun is upended.
I've had one snap clean off, and another was pretty badly battered after a few years of use.

The exterior and interior finish of the receiver often show machining rings that make for a somewhat disconcerting feeling and sound.....the American ZzzzRRRT! Is a thing. You can generally avoid this by getting one of the cerakoted guns, They tend to have a nicer finish than the standards do. For the $100 premium they tend to bring, I'd go for it.

The stock AI magazines that come on the rugers tend to be kind of wide, and I found it on a few firearms. They jam into the bottom of the receivers and that can cause binding on both the magazine and the bolt.

Can't really think of anything else offhand, and all of these are relatively easy to fix.

Wreck-n-Crew said:

The whole point of giving advice is the good and bad. Varminterror’s comment was on topic.

How do you suppose someone should respond when giving advice on a subject they experience with or knowledge of? Leave out the bad so someones feelings don't get hurt?

I doubt people ask for others advice, experience, and/or knowledge if they didn’t want the good and the bad!

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Nothing wrong with giving advice, but an open statement without explanation isn't advice. For example, "The 783 ain't so great that I'd bother." How does that help anybody? What's not so great about it would help the OP, and others, to make a better choice. The 783 is a budget rifle with excellent reviews, I might add. So, being a budget rifle, where did Remington "cut corners?" If you don't have one or haven't shot one or haven't dissected one, then your input isn't worth much in my opinion. Hearsay is not advice.

CZ has been advertising a new rifle, reasonably price. And my brother recently pick-up a used Tikka T-3 which is an excellent shooter.

Varminterror said:

Broken extractors, ejectors, firing pins, fatigued mag lips, and dragging followers are not operator errors. Your contest here is non-sequitur.

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The only Remington I would consider getting right now is a 700-something. There is no factory support under RemArms that I know of. But there is a lot of third party accessories for the 700. Otherwise, I would avoid anything Remington for the time being until they get back on their feet. My last foray rifle into Remington was the 770. Even for a budget rifle, that one was horrendous.

GerryER said:

"The 783 ain't so great that I'd bother." How does that help anybody?

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Because the 783 is a budget rifle. And this thread is about budget rifles.

GerryER said:

"The 783 ain't so great that I'd bother." How does that help anybody?

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Regardless of quality or performance - if two identical “budget rifles” are on the shelf, one has a strong company backing it with a solid record of support, and the other is known to offer no warranty/guarantee support, it’s quite objective to say the former is the better purchase.

A budget rifle with a problem, but no warranty, is no longer a budget rifle - because the buyer is now on the hook for repairs at cost.

I wouldn’t tout the 783’s to be superior to the other rifles being considered for performance, reliability, accuracy, finish quality, or overall value - so as I said before, the 783’s ain’t so great that I’d bother buying one, whether it no longer was covered by Remington, OR was covered by the new RemArms.

Comparatively for the OP - I could be convinced I’d rather have metal mags over polymer mags, but I don’t put too much weight on that - I use a lot of polymer mags with great success and reliability. But I MIGHT be convinced to spend a bit extra on the Ruger American model which accepts AI pattern mags - although I’m not certain how much that “bit extra” represents in current prices. The Savage budget models are also solid. I’ve only played with the Mossbergs briefly, and wasn’t disappointed - it did what I expected, how I expected, commensurate to the price point among the Axis II and American. I could lump a Howa in there and be happy, don’t think any of the Tikka models are available at this price point… Were it my wallet creaking open for this rifle, it would be between the Ruger American and the Savage Axis, and most days, I’d side on the American.

GerryER said:

Nothing wrong with giving advice, but an open statement without explanation isn't advice. For example, "The 783 ain't so great that I'd bother." How does that help anybody? What's not so great about it would help the OP, and others, to make a better choice. The 783 is a budget rifle with excellent reviews, I might add. So, being a budget rifle, where did Remington "cut corners?" If you don't have one or haven't shot one or haven't dissected one, then your input isn't worth much in my opinion. Hearsay is not advice.

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You chose a single sentence of his post. Maybe you should have read the whole thing and used it in the context as he wrote it?

It was made in response to this statement [Quote: “These are all minor repairs that many gunsmiths can do” end Quote]

and here is his statement in response which he quoted


[quote: “
Minor repairs a gunsmith can do at cost - when a better rifle can be bought which also comes with continued support from the OEM so any of these issues would be free warrantable repairs…

The 783 ain’t so great that I’d bother.” End quote]

To add it was a response to another statement prior here.. [partial Quote: “ These are all minor repairs that many gunsmiths can do; that is why I wouldn't worry about getting a 783 or other bolt actions for that matter“ end quote].

If anything strayed from the topic is was a response that wasn’t in context and more like a sound bite than anything.

As far as i am concerned the debate is closed on my end and no further response from me is necessary. My point is made and I am moving on to find a more friendly and enlightening conversation.

conan32120 said:

this is the advice I was looking for so I know what to check when inspect a rifle. Thank you

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Very welcome!

Ive owned a half dozen Americans and worked on a half dozen more, and these are the only issues ive seen.
None took the rifle out of commission (even the broken bolt stop), just annoying.