A Carbine Dilemma

12Bravo20 · Sep 22, 2022

Swampman said:
I would hope so since 55 grain M193 ball is what they're designed to shoot...

Yes I should have reworded my previous post. The 1-12 twist was developed for the 55 grain M193 ammunition. The original 1-14 twist was found to be too slow for M193.

For th OP, Since there is a pretty good chance that you will be using M855 and M856 tracers, the M4 will be better. Also You still want the make sure the rifles shoot accurately out to 300 meters even if your primary use is for CQB.

David Hoback · Sep 22, 2022

Ok, going back to the rifles… at their core, the two rifles are the SAME THING. The Uppers & Lowers were forged at same Foundry! They were machined in the SAME shop. They use the SAME LPK parts. There are few differences. Weight difference only come from the barrel, furniture and accessories. Which can be swapped back & forth like Legos! Take whichever you like more.

Beyrouth · Sep 22, 2022

David Hoback said:
Ok, going back to the rifles… at their core, the two rifles are the SAME THING. The Uppers & Lowers were forged at same Foundry! They were machined in the SAME shop. They use the SAME LPK parts. There are few differences. Weight difference only come from the barrel, furniture and accessories. Which can be swapped back & forth like Legos! Take whichever you like more.

I concur, I’ll let you all know how my groups end up and honestly I’ll take the one I’m more comfortable with. Although I’m leaning towards the M16 more, the M4 seems more practical

David Hoback · Sep 22, 2022

Well, let me ask this.. are you planning to keep this as a collectors item and prolong its value? Or is this to be USED, a rifle should be? I’m not a collector. I have only the firearms I use. Cut WAY down from what I once had.

I ask, because if it’s to be used, you’d be much better served with something like this. Or one like so many others here have. Again, while the core is virtually the same, every other part is of higher end. The barrel, free float rail, better stock, adjustable gas system. More comfortable. More accurate.

Beyrouth · Sep 22, 2022

No it’s a rifle to be used, I don’t believe in collecting guns. Right now I’ll purchase the necessities such as a LPVO, red dot, I already have the Fortis foregrips. Along the way I’ll upgrade it to fit my comfort, such as the charging handle to most likely Raptor, a big fan of those. But I will keep it as original as possible as well, not everyone gets the privilege of owning a SF operator instrument

David Hoback · Sep 22, 2022

Is this to be a gift, or are you getting a good deal? For nearly 2 decades of being involved with AR’s, I’ve never purchased one. I’ve only built my own. And I’ve encouraged people through the years to do the same, as it’s always seemed counterproductive to purchased a rifle, then start replacing parts on it. Always been better, I’ve thought, to just build the rifle as seen fit from the beginning. Less money spent, and knowing what you’re doing a Top Tier rifle can be built for a fraction of the cost.

Little side note, you mentioned the Rapture. Have a look at my thread about the BreekArms Micro Warhammer. I like it more than the Rapture & it’s half the price. Same 7075-T6. Same high end US machining. That has been my mission the last many years. I find the BEST for the LEAST. While most people look at “Name brands”, I look at materials & machining.

Beyrouth · Sep 22, 2022

David Hoback said:
Is this to be a gift, or are you getting a good deal? For nearly 2 decades of being involved with AR’s, I’ve never purchased one. I’ve only built my own. And I’ve encouraged people through the years to do the same, as it’s always seemed counterproductive to purchased a rifle, then start replacing parts on it. Always been better, I’ve thought, to just build the rifle as seen fit from the beginning. Less money spent, and knowing what you’re doing a Top Tier rifle can be built for a fraction of the cost.

Little side note, you mentioned the Rapture. Have a look at my thread about the BreekArms Micro Warhammer. I like it more than the Rapture & it’s half the price. Same 7075-T6. Same high end US machining. That has been my mission the last many years. I find the BEST for the LEAST. While most people look at “Name brands”, I look at materials & machining.

Usually NIB US government issued carbines or rifles go for $8,000+ over here, I’m getting it with 5 magazines and 1000 rounds for $3,000 so honestly it’s a steal. I will definitely check out the micro war hammer, this is why I did this post. Can always learn new things. Appreciate the feedback Dave

David Hoback · Sep 22, 2022

$3500? Is that 3500 Lira, or US dollars??

If it’s US dollars… :what:

My last build cost maybe $1300-1400 total.. And it has the quality, & accuracy of Knights, LMT, LWRC, LaRue Tact, ANY Top Tier AR.

d2wing · Sep 22, 2022

I would take the M4 as the shortened M16 may not have enough dwell time to work with some ammo much like a dissipater style unless the gas tube length has been shortened also. Dwell is the time the bullet travels from the gas port until it exits the barrel. Both have advantages but not a big deal.

Beyrouth · Sep 22, 2022

David Hoback said:
$3500? Is that 3500 Lira, or US dollars??

If it’s US dollars… My last build cost maybe $1300-1400 total.. And it has the quality, & accuracy of Knights, LMT, LWRC, LaRue Tact, ANY Top Tier AR.

USD

Guns are veeerrryyy expensive over here. Your typical $400 Glock? Yeah that goes for 3k here. I’ve used the FN M4 and it is fantastic, but the Colt is another level. Tried the LMT M4…most horrid excuse of a weapon

Beyrouth · Sep 22, 2022

d2wing said:
I would take the M4 as the shortened M16 may not have enough dwell time to work with some ammo much like a dissipater style unless the gas tube length has been shortened also. Dwell is the time the bullet travels from the gas port until it exits the barrel. Both have advantages but not a big deal.

Didn’t know that, thanks

N555 · Sep 22, 2022

I have shot the dot mils M4 carbine in "full auto" which is 3 round burst and found it shockingly useless.
With more training maybe I could hit the bad guy target with all 3 shots at 25 yards most of the time, but I found semi auto to be more controllable and predictable. It's kind of a fair replacement for a good semiauto shotgun in cqb.

Beyrouth · Sep 22, 2022

N555 said:
I have shot the dot mils M4 carbine in "full auto" which is 3 round burst and found it shockingly useless.
With more training maybe I could hit the bad guy target with all 3 shots at 25 yards most of the time, but I found semi auto to be more controllable and predictable. It's kind of a fair replacement for a good semiauto shotgun in cqb.

Burst is the most useless piece of crap invented. Semi auto is where it’s at, we use full auto for suppressive fire and CQB, often using the CAR method. Not very efficient but gets the job done

N555 · Sep 22, 2022

Beyrouth said:
Burst is the most useless piece of crap invented. Semi auto is where it’s at, we use full auto for suppressive fire and CQB, often using the CAR method. Not very efficient but gets the job done

I was starting to think I was the only one.

Tinman357 · Sep 22, 2022

Beyrouth;

Go for the M-4, you will be much more satisfied in the long run.

Side note, while I never "occupied" your country, I spent several extended stays there back when I was on active duty, early to mid 80's when things were getting weird. It truly was a beautiful place back in the day. Wonderful people.

Enjoy your M-4.

BigBlue 94 · Sep 22, 2022

David Hoback said:
$3500? Is that 3500 Lira, or US dollars??

If it’s US dollars… My last build cost maybe $1300-1400 total.. And it has the quality, & accuracy of Knights, LMT, LWRC, LaRue Tact, ANY Top Tier AR.

Last figures i heard was a P.O.S. MAC pistol was the cheapest full auto on the legal market, between 5 and 10 thousand USD.

If i could buy any running automatic AR for $3500, i would be selling a few guns and getting that paperwork started!

As for the gun in question, if both have rails for a RDS, i would likely go with the M16. Assuming it is still a rifle length gas system. But ive also never been in any sort of combat situation so take that with a grain of salt. The M4 collapsing stock may be the deciding factor for CQ work.

12Bravo20 · Sep 22, 2022

BigBlue 94 said:
As for the gun in question, if both have rails for a RDS, i would likely go with the M16. Assuming it is still a rifle length gas system.

As mentioned by others, there is a good chance that the cutdown 16" M16A1 may have dwell time issues with a rifle length gas system. Same happens with the true Dissipator models with rifle length gas systems too.

David Hoback · Sep 22, 2022

BigBlue 94 said:
Last figures i heard was a P.O.S. MAC pistol was the cheapest full auto on the legal market, between 5 and 10 thousand USD.

If i could buy any running automatic AR for $3500, i would be selling a few guns and getting that paperwork started!

As for the gun in question, if both have rails for a RDS, i would likely go with the M16. Assuming it is still a rifle length gas system. But ive also never been in any sort of combat situation so take that with a grain of salt. The M4 collapsing stock may be the deciding factor for CQ work.

Why? When it’s SO easy to convert a Semi? And even at that, trust me.. it loses its appeal. I had free reign with an M16, G36, Thompson, MP5, UMP 9, 40, & 45 & M2 Carbine. They were under my care. I cleaned, maintained, trained other in their use & shot them whenever I wanted. Well, dumping ammo gets real old, real quick! Even with Semi Auto, I rarely would or do now, load full mags. It’s just a waste of ammo.

One other thing I have to comment on. I’ve dealt with many Colts & Many FN’s. I’m not sure too many who have handled both would say the Colt is better?? Once again, being that many of their parts are made in the same factories! And same thing for LMT’s. Don’t think many knowledgeable Americans here would call LMT’s poor excuses. I’m just having trouble understanding how the Colt can be seen as “next level”. I’m sorry.. they just aren’t. They use the same Forged Uppers & Lowers as every single other AR15 company. We’ve discussed this before. I’m not saying “similar”. No, they are IDENTICAL! Made at the SAME factory! As well as the Buffers, Front Sight Blocks, the LPK parts: pins/springs/Trigger group/Mag release/yadda, yadda,yadda… these parts are all the SAME! Not to mention, while FN made & continue to makes their own barrels, which are held in high regard by people, I don’t believe Colt does. Well, I know they haven’t made their barrels for a long time, but perhaps they did here & there.

Here’s something I’ve done before, but I’ll do it here to enlighten the OP & perhaps others still in the dark. Below are links to Two M4 Upper Receivers.

This first one is Colt. Selling for $170 because it is COLT..which means it’s better, right?
https://www.gandrtactical.com/Colt-M4-Upper-Receiver-Assembly_p_321.html

And here is one that I’ve used in the past. Selling for $59.99 Why so much cheaper? Oh, well.. because they Colt is far superior..right? But wait.. look at them very closely. See what I see?
https://www.surplusammo.com/product...tripped-t-marked-flat-top-upper-receiver.html

Beyrouth · Sep 22, 2022

Tinman357 said:
Beyrouth;

Go for the M-4, you will be much more satisfied in the long run.

Side note, while I never "occupied" your country, I spent several extended stays there back when I was on active duty, early to mid 80's when things were getting weird. It truly was a beautiful place back in the day. Wonderful people.

Enjoy your M-4.

Yeah things were getting weird in the 80’s no doubt about that. The whole region went south. I’m really glad you enjoyed your time here even if it was “turbulent”. Going to the range in a few hours with the Colt M4 and the modified Colt M16, will keep you in the loop

Beyrouth · Sep 22, 2022

BigBlue 94 said:
Last figures i heard was a P.O.S. MAC pistol was the cheapest full auto on the legal market, between 5 and 10 thousand USD.

If i could buy any running automatic AR for $3500, i would be selling a few guns and getting that paperwork started!

As for the gun in question, if both have rails for a RDS, i would likely go with the M16. Assuming it is still a rifle length gas system. But ive also never been in any sort of combat situation so take that with a grain of salt. The M4 collapsing stock may be the deciding factor for CQ work.

From what I know it’s still a M16A1 but modified for CQB. So I’m pretty sure it’s still a rifle and not a carbine

Mosin77 · Sep 22, 2022

M4. More versatile and less likely to have unforeseen issues. For range/recreation? The M16 by a hair.

Disclaimer that I’m not a soldier, just an enthusiast, and this opinion is worth exactly what you paid for it.

Beyrouth · Sep 22, 2022

David Hoback said:
Why? When it’s SO easy to convert a Semi? And even at that, trust me.. it loses its appeal. I had free reign with an M16, G36, Thompson, MP5, UMP 9, 40, & 45 & M2 Carbine. They were under my care. I cleaned, maintained, trained other in their use & shot them whenever I wanted. Well, dumping ammo gets real old, real quick! Even with Semi Auto, I rarely would or do now, load full mags. It’s just a waste of ammo.

One other thing I have to comment on. I’ve dealt with many Colts & Many FN’s. I’m not sure too many who have handled both would say the Colt is better?? Once again, being that many of their parts are made in the same factories! And same thing for LMT’s. Don’t think many knowledgeable Americans here would call LMT’s poor excuses. I’m just having trouble understanding how the Colt can be seen as “next level”. I’m sorry.. they just aren’t. They use the same Forged Uppers & Lowers as every single other AR15 company. We’ve discussed this before. I’m not saying “similar”. No, they are IDENTICAL! Made at the SAME factory! As well as the Buffers, Front Sight Blocks, the LPK parts: pins/springs/Trigger group/Mag release/yadda, yadda,yadda… these parts are all the SAME! Not to mention, while FN made & continue to makes their own barrels, which are held in high regard by people, I don’t believe Colt does. Well, I know they haven’t made their barrels for a long time, but perhaps they did here & there.

Here’s something I’ve done before, but I’ll do it here to enlighten the OP & perhaps others still in the dark. Below are links to Two M4 Upper Receivers.

This first one is Colt. Selling for $170 because it is COLT..which means it’s better, right?
https://www.gandrtactical.com/Colt-M4-Upper-Receiver-Assembly_p_321.html

And here is one that I’ve used in the past. Selling for $59.99 Why so much cheaper? Oh, well.. because they Colt is far superior..right? But wait.. look at them very closely. See what I see?
https://www.surplusammo.com/product...tripped-t-marked-flat-top-upper-receiver.html

FN M4’s I’ve used were excellent, never jammed or failed on me once. Same with the Colt’s, but the Colt’s just feel better in quality. LMT? We got several thousands of them…. Our whole batch was recalled because after every 100-150 rounds the gun would jam and the forward assist would be non responsive. Also the build quality was definitely worse than the Colt and FN. Maybe the civilian market rifles are built different than US government issues ones

Beyrouth · Sep 23, 2022

Mosin77 said:
M4. More versatile and less likely to have unforeseen issues. For range/recreation? The M16 by a hair.

Disclaimer that I’m not a soldier, just an enthusiast, and this opinion is worth exactly what you paid for it.

Appreciate it

JShirley · Sep 23, 2022

Me in 2007, (then) Firebase Tagab. That's a Stag Arms 16" upper with Trijicon 1.25-4x on a standard M4. (No, it wouldn't shoot FA, but I was more worried about covering targets at distance than CQB. We had the ODA, with their little 10.5" M4s, for that.)

mongoslow · Sep 23, 2022

M4, 36 yard zero, not the best rifle out there but it is the best do everything package you can carry , it is a "Jack of all Trades" type weapon, with training and familiarity most people can make it fit any role they may need it for

A Carbine Dilemma

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