When old timers say what is the target showing...

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AJC1

AJC1

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The modern path of load development may not be all its cracked up to be and as components get more expensive people continue to reduce sample size of test groups, while maintaining their confidence in that data. Those most concerned over supper small groups have always been the short range br crowd. They throw powder at the range and load at the bench.... they determine a good load based on bullet impacts not what the lab radar said. The hobby may be evolving to include new toys but results always have and always will matter most.
 
I grew up with relatively exhaustive load development methods. Ridiculous matrices of powder, primer, charge weight, and bullets, and tons of time at the range from 100 to 600 yards…

Then I learned about the Audette ladder and the Newberry OCW method, and my development method shrunk dramatically - and my groups shrunk at all ranges.

I was still spending a lot of “development time” at the range, as opposed to “practice time” from 100 to 600 yards. At the time, I was shooting for score and group size, and still found the process excessively burdensome, so I gave up those games.

Then I learned to focus on a few specific powders, and my load development shrunk further - and my groups shrunk again. And my time at the range spent working on loads instead of working on skills shrank again.

Then I learned about the Satterlee method, and I was certain it wouldn’t work. So I tested it against Audette and Newberry methods… sure enough, I get the same outcomes for finding powder charge nodes, but I can shoot at 100yrds, only 30-40 shots, and have my node sufficiently bracketed for most any purpose I pursue.

Maybe if I were shooting benchrest still, I’d chase longer development… BUT… I shoot less load development than I ever have in the past, and shoot smaller groups than I ever have in the past, with less rounds fired and less practice. I’m not terribly convinced my tenure of marksmanship has overwhelmed my lack of currency, so by and large, I attribute the successes to process efficiency. I don’t spend as much time telling my loads they’re broken, and rather tell my loads that they work, so they do.
 
Varminterror said:
I grew up with relatively exhaustive load development methods. Ridiculous matrices of powder, primer, charge weight, and bullets, and tons of time at the range from 100 to 600 yards…

Then I learned about the Audette ladder and the Newberry OCW method, and my development method shrunk dramatically - and my groups shrunk at all ranges.

I was still spending a lot of “development time” at the range, as opposed to “practice time” from 100 to 600 yards. At the time, I was shooting for score and group size, and still found the process excessively burdensome, so I gave up those games.

Then I learned to focus on a few specific powders, and my load development shrunk further - and my groups shrunk again. And my time at the range spent working on loads instead of working on skills shrank again.

Then I learned about the Satterlee method, and I was certain it wouldn’t work. So I tested it against Audette and Newberry methods… sure enough, I get the same outcomes for finding powder charge nodes, but I can shoot at 100yrds, only 30-40 shots, and have my node sufficiently bracketed for most any purpose I pursue.

Maybe if I were shooting benchrest still, I’d chase longer development… BUT… I shoot less load development than I ever have in the past, and shoot smaller groups than I ever have in the past, with less rounds fired and less practice. I’m not terribly convinced my tenure of marksmanship has overwhelmed my lack of currency, so by and large, I attribute the successes to process efficiency. I don’t spend as much time telling my loads they’re broken, and rather tell my loads that they work, so they do.
Click to expand...

I started with ladders and OCW. I got decent results, but I shot alot of components up, and I spent alot of time in front of the press and time shooting bad groups to find the best group. It wasnt alot of fun.

Now I use the Satterlee method with known proven combinations. Why try to reinvent the wheel? I did the load dev on my 6 CM in 15 shots with a 109 Berger, H4350, CCI BR4s and Peterson brass. 10 shots for velocity curve test, 5 rounds for verification, shot just under a 1/2". 1000 rounds later, it still shoots. The only thing I might test someday, and Ill probably need a new barrel first, is messing with bullet jump, but for now 20 thou off works fine all the way to 1000 yards.

I do want to look a little bit harder at the Satterlee method though. I have noticed trends at certain powder charges for accuracy. Ill see bullets on target, say one at 12, another at 3, then all the sudden Ill stack 4 in a row at 9, then it will shoot at 6, 3, etc. I purchased a Shotmarker for long range shooting, but I can leverage it to look at shot order when shots start stacking on top of each other, and compare that to the velocity curves. Might be worth a look, might be complete bunk. Time will tell.
 
Kaldor said:
I started with ladders and OCW. I got decent results, but I shot alot of components up, and I spent alot of time in front of the press and time shooting bad groups to find the best group. It wasnt alot of fun.

Now I use the Satterlee method with known proven combinations. Why try to reinvent the wheel? I did the load dev on my 6 CM in 15 shots with a 109 Berger, H4350, CCI BR4s and Peterson brass. 10 shots for velocity curve test, 5 rounds for verification, shot just under a 1/2". 1000 rounds later, it still shoots. The only thing I might test someday, and Ill probably need a new barrel first, is messing with bullet jump, but for now 20 thou off works fine all the way to 1000 yards.

I do want to look a little bit harder at the Satterlee method though. I have noticed trends at certain powder charges for accuracy. Ill see bullets on target, say one at 12, another at 3, then all the sudden Ill stack 4 in a row at 9, then it will shoot at 6, 3, etc. I purchased a Shotmarker for long range shooting, but I can leverage it to look at shot order when shots start stacking on top of each other, and compare that to the velocity curves. Might be worth a look, might be complete bunk. Time will tell.
Click to expand...
Didn't know Satterlee was old-school until I read about it. Building ladders is fun and informative but it's a method I was taught in the late 70's for learning a powder's personality. Once you know how a powder is going to react to changes in projectile and such it's pretty easy to load a few cartridges and zero in on a good load just by watching where you hit and how it feels.

When I was shooting service rifle at the local ranges in central Florida in the early 80's most shooters doing development after a component change or testing legal accurizations to their rifles either used Lee Loaders or hand tools to put together cartridges at the shooting bench. It only took those guys one or two tries to get a solid load. I asked questions and got good advice - and some solid ribbing. ;) I tried the Lee Loaders for .303Brit and .30-06Spg and went with that. Still got them and still use them. Later bought a Lee Hand Press and it was an interesting change but I can't honestly say an improvement. The Lee Loaders make good ammo once you learn the knack to using them. One-shot-per-charge has been around a long time. Before Satterlee we called it WAG'ing. ;)
 
Varminterror said:
I grew up with relatively exhaustive load development methods. Ridiculous matrices of powder, primer, charge weight, and bullets, and tons of time at the range from 100 to 600 yards…

Then I learned about the Audette ladder and the Newberry OCW method, and my development method shrunk dramatically - and my groups shrunk at all ranges.

I was still spending a lot of “development time” at the range, as opposed to “practice time” from 100 to 600 yards. At the time, I was shooting for score and group size, and still found the process excessively burdensome, so I gave up those games.

Then I learned to focus on a few specific powders, and my load development shrunk further - and my groups shrunk again. And my time at the range spent working on loads instead of working on skills shrank again.

Then I learned about the Satterlee method, and I was certain it wouldn’t work. So I tested it against Audette and Newberry methods… sure enough, I get the same outcomes for finding powder charge nodes, but I can shoot at 100yrds, only 30-40 shots, and have my node sufficiently bracketed for most any purpose I pursue.

Maybe if I were shooting benchrest still, I’d chase longer development… BUT… I shoot less load development than I ever have in the past, and shoot smaller groups than I ever have in the past, with less rounds fired and less practice. I’m not terribly convinced my tenure of marksmanship has overwhelmed my lack of currency, so by and large, I attribute the successes to process efficiency. I don’t spend as much time telling my loads they’re broken, and rather tell my loads that they work, so they do.
Click to expand...
It's no desire of mine to say that a systematic approach to load development is bad. The guys that developed all 3 of the described approaches are far better than I.
 
Varminterror said:
I may be wrong to assume it’s still common as it was ~15-20yrs ago, but a lot of guys I knew in short range BR threw at the match, based on environmental conditions at the time.
Click to expand...
Everyone I shot with in registered Benchrest matches threw charges at the range. Not saying it hasn't been done, but I never saw it. Shot with plenty of hall of fame Benchrest shooters.
 
AJC1 said:
The modern path of load development may not be all its cracked up to be and as components get more expensive people continue to reduce sample size of test groups, while maintaining their confidence in that data. Those most concerned over supper small groups have always been the short range br crowd. They throw powder at the range and load at the bench.... they determine a good load based on bullet impacts not what the lab radar said. The hobby may be evolving to include new toys but results always have and always will matter most.
Click to expand...


I learned to reload using the 3 shot group at 100 until you find a good one. Most shooting was inside 200 anyway.
Then I started reading reloading for long range accuracy. The Audette ladder seemed like a straight forward approach. I tried it and was blown away by it's accuracy.
Then I tried the OCW system. I got similar results.
The new styles all require reliance on gadgets instead of skill. It's becoming a trend in everything. Do you suck at your hobby? Buy this... Honing your skills is for peasants that can't afford to buy their "skill".
 
Bfh_auto said:
I learned to reload using the 3 shot group at 100 until you find a good one. Most shooting was inside 200 anyway.
Then I started reading reloading for long range accuracy. The Audette ladder seemed like a straight forward approach. I tried it and was blown away by it's accuracy.
Then I tried the OCW system. I got similar results.
The new styles all require reliance on gadgets instead of skill. It's becoming a trend in everything. Do you suck at your hobby? Buy this... Honing your skills is for peasants that can't afford to buy their "skill".
Click to expand...
I'm currently learning to hand file chainsaw chain. Is grinding sharper and faster yep. I appreciate skill and I'm a life long learner. Will I ever be the best loader, shooter or chainsaw hand filer, I doubt it. Do I enjoy the journey and packing my life with skills that others don't have, absolutely. I enjoy the people here, and I help when I can, and visit or just banter with like minded people. I listen to every piece of advice and try to learn from things I disagree with. The only thing I don't tolerate is arguing and fighting. Someone is angry have at, but I'm gone.
 
AJC1 said:
I'm currently learning to hand file chainsaw chain. Is grinding sharper and faster yep. I appreciate skill and I'm a life long learner. Will I ever be the best loader, shooter or chainsaw hand filer, I doubt it. Do I enjoy the journey and packing my life with skills that others don't have, absolutely. I enjoy the people here, and I help when I can, and visit or just banter with like minded people. I listen to every piece of advice and try to learn from things I disagree with. The only thing I don't tolerate is arguing and fighting. Someone is angry have at, but I'm gone.
Click to expand...
Great example. I log for a living. You can sharpen with a grinder. It kind of works. You can use the file guide which will let you do a little better job. It you can destroy a few chains learning to free hand file. It gives you the best results if you put in the time while playing attention to every detail.
 
Varminterror said:
I may be wrong to assume it’s still common as it was ~15-20yrs ago, but a lot of guys I knew in short range BR threw at the match, based on environmental conditions at the time.
Click to expand...

I wonder If barrel tuners have made that process obsolete to some degree
 
Last edited:
AJC1 said:
I'm currently learning to hand file chainsaw chain. Is grinding sharper and faster yep. I appreciate skill and I'm a life long learning.
Click to expand...
Yep my grinder sits on the shelf. I have 3 different chain saws with different blade pitch etc. I have a set of files for each and enjoy every second of sharpening my chains. Off to reloading. I had a chronograph once and sold it. To much time involved. I don't worry about velocity and load for consistent accuracy. I can tell if it's me or the load acting up at the range after all these years. To each his own though.
 
I still use a file for sharpening chainsaws. No jig or anything.

For long range I look for an accuracy node with small ES/SD numbers.

For years it was shoot three shot groups at 100, good there, try it farther. Good there, I'm done. Different accuracy requirements for different applications. I used five shot groups when finer accuracy was needed. That still works.
 
AJC1 said:
I'm currently learning to hand file chainsaw chain. Is grinding sharper and faster yep. I appreciate skill and I'm a life long learner. Will I ever be the best loader, shooter or chainsaw hand filer, I doubt it. Do I enjoy the journey and packing my life with skills that others don't have, absolutely. I enjoy the people here, and I help when I can, and visit or just banter with like minded people. I listen to every piece of advice and try to learn from things I disagree with. The only thing I don't tolerate is arguing and fighting. Someone is angry have at, but I'm gone.
Click to expand...
Interesting perspective like many others here. I live just outside the beltway in northern Virginia, Fairfax county, now home to ultra wokeness and non-binary crap whatever that is and everyone pays someone else for lawn service, plumbing, tree removal, car washing, oil changing, deck building. Nobody does anything for themselves. Doubt they know how.

I watched this happening so as I raised my two sons (now 30) I taught them to split firewood (although they’d never have to, if fireplaces are still legal), change oil, brakes, rebuild a gasoline lawn mower engine, sharpen a blade, hammer a nail properly, use the proper sized screw driver, extract a screw, drill & tap a hole and chase a thread, repair a toilet. All those things my dad taught me but didn’t even know he was teaching—was just doing while I watched.

Off to college they went. One is now a financial analyst with a Beltway bandit. Just bought an incredibly overpriced but run down 50s vintage house—does his own repairs because he can’t afford to pay highly skilled tradesmen. Where’d he learn to do that? The other dropped out of school, lives in a mountain community in a yurt, and is a jack of all trades handyman. Where’d he learn to do that?

When AI & robots take over the world…humans will still be fixing toilets. Some will do their own while others will pay hundreds $$ per hour.
 
AJC1 said:
I'm currently learning to hand file chainsaw chain. Is grinding sharper and faster yep. I appreciate skill and I'm a life long learner. Will I ever be the best loader, shooter or chainsaw hand filer, I doubt it. Do I enjoy the journey and packing my life with skills that others don't have, absolutely. I enjoy the people here, and I help when I can, and visit or just banter with like minded people. I listen to every piece of advice and try to learn from things I disagree with. The only thing I don't tolerate is arguing and fighting. Someone is angry have at, but I'm gone.
Click to expand...

Bfh_auto said:
Great example. I log for a living. You can sharpen with a grinder. It kind of works. You can use the file guide which will let you do a little better job. It you can destroy a few chains learning to free hand file. It gives you the best results if you put in the time while playing attention to every detail.
Click to expand...

Walkalong said:
I still use a file for sharpening chainsaws. No jig or anything.

For long range I look for an accuracy node with small ES/SD numbers.

For years it was shoot three shot groups at 100, good there, try it farther. Good there, I'm done. Different accuracy requirements for different applications. I used five shot groups when finer accuracy was needed. That still works.
Click to expand...

Amazing how the comments go in a way different direction sometimes :)
My dad taught me how to handfile a chainsaw many years ago because all we did was burn about 15-20 cord every year for heat. The chains last longer, and once you get really good at it, you can touch a saw up in just a few minutes with 2-3 strokes per tooth.
I think a ground chain cuts just fine, but the chains life is shorter, and if the guy thats running the grinder doesnt know what hes doing, he can take all the temper out of the chain making it worthless. The computerized grinders are pretty dang cool, and some of them can even do a square cut.
 
AJC1 said:
The modern path of load development may not be all its cracked up to be and as components get more expensive people continue to reduce sample size of test groups, while maintaining their confidence in that data. Those most concerned over supper small groups have always been the short range br crowd. They throw powder at the range and load at the bench.... they determine a good load based on bullet impacts not what the lab radar said. The hobby may be evolving to include new toys but results always have and always will matter most.
Click to expand...

Keith is correct, the target is king not the Computor, many times the best ES /SD are far from the best groups.
 

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I used a file for yrs and still do for touch-ups but I like the grinders that are like a miter box at the shop so I can get the teeth and guides consistent.

I've not tried each method but I will search each and see if I can get better, currently I use the latter for bullets, powder, OAL, annealing or not and case mfg. That is hundreds of rnds per load and now I want to check out uniforming the primer pocket and flash hole so that will add more.
Maybe I need to find an old timer to see what I'm doing to cut down on time and ammo
 
AJC1 said:
I've seen it both ways. Hard to adjust a premeasured vile.
Click to expand...
my grandfather was a benchrest shooter back in the sixties. that is how he did it. i don't know how anyone else did it. he also weight sorted cup-and-core bullets and did not anneal cases.

murf
 
Varminterror said:
I may be wrong to assume it’s still common as it was ~15-20yrs ago, but a lot of guys I knew in short range BR threw at the match, based on environmental conditions at the time.
Click to expand...
benchrest has come a long way since my grandfather's benchrest shooting back in the sixties. he was shooting a remington 40xb tight neck chambered in 222 magnum (pre-ppc days).

murf
 
rdnktrkr said:
I used a file for yrs and still do for touch-ups but I like the grinders that are like a miter box at the shop so I can get the teeth and guides consistent.

I've not tried each method but I will search each and see if I can get better, currently I use the latter for bullets, powder, OAL, annealing or not and case mfg. That is hundreds of rnds per load and now I want to check out uniforming the primer pocket and flash hole so that will add more.
Maybe I need to find an old timer to see what I'm doing to cut down on time and ammo
Click to expand...

The old guys are returning to the old ways, the less I mess the better mine shoots.
 
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