When old timers say what is the target showing...

[AJC1]

The old guys are returning to the old ways, the less I mess the better mine shoots.

Probably something to that, equally hard to quantify.

 

[Varminterror]

Productivity of old timers, just like modern shooters, depends on the ACTUAL knowledge of the old timer.

Dumbassery isn’t a modern invention.

When I was in my early 20’s, one grey top taught me to better perform at 1,000yrds, and taught me the Audette ladder. Alternatively, I also heard from another grey top that a bullet from a bottleneck cartridge can’t reach 1,000 yards, because they’re going so fast that they “grind themselves to nothing before they get there.”

Alternatively, the age of the internet has brought about much, much greater transfer of information, so modern era shooters - of all ages - have access to proven methods, newish or oldish, and have sounding boards to vet dumbassery before repeating it themselves.

 

[JFrank]

Dumbassery isn’t a modern invention.

I don’t care who ya are that’s funny stuff right there…

 

[JFrank]

Probably something to that, equally hard to quantify.

I see it come full circle in my little program, and the things that really matter become more evident, or should I say ( don’t matter). I’ve had recent conversations with a few guys I really respect that have also gone back to no turn necks, no uniforming, no fire forming or sorting of primers , bullets or cases.. you get the picture.. and when you see the groups that get put on paper you have to ask yourself why bother.

 

[AJC1]

I see it come full circle in my little program, and the things that really matter become more evident, or should I say ( don’t matter). I’ve had recent conversations with a few guys I really respect that have also gone back to no turn necks, no uniforming, no fire forming or sorting of primers , bullets or cases.. you get the picture.. and when you see the groups that get put on paper you have to ask yourself why bother.

They are also probably using good components to begin with and changing those components can be good or bad, resulting in leaving good enough alone giving a better average. Watching guys tip one dollar berger bullets was always a bridge to far for me.

 

[JFrank]

Yes, good equipment and great gun handling skills while navigating conditions will trump a lot of case prep. I can take a great tune to an event and get my butt handed to me real quick.

 

[JFrank]

I still use a file for sharpening chainsaws. No jig or anything.

For long range I look for an accuracy node with small ES/SD numbers.

For years it was shoot three shot groups at 100, good there, try it farther. Good there, I'm done. Different accuracy requirements for different applications. I used five shot groups when finer accuracy was needed. That still works.

Yep ‘ different games for sure.

 

[GeoDudeFlorida]

Yep my grinder sits on the shelf. I have 3 different chain saws with different blade pitch etc. I have a set of files for each and enjoy every second of sharpening my chains. Off to reloading. I had a chronograph once and sold it. To much time involved. I don't worry about velocity and load for consistent accuracy. I can tell if it's me or the load acting up at the range after all these years. To each his own though.

Sure but the kids these days like to see chronograph output they can load into a simulator to see if what they’re shooting’s as accurate as it would be if it were only twerked somehow. They don’t trust targets, they trust “data” - even though I doubt many of the QuirkyLoads gang can define the word correctly.
If you’re not using a Lab-or-other and punching data into an interface, you’re just not withit enough to hang with the Bronies.
Bottom line is to load for a purpose. If it’s LR BR, load for paper; if it’s vermin load for that. Vermin hunters don’t chase wounded game, they just let the critters plop and suffer wherever. If you’re filling the freezer, load for the quickest, cleanest kill. Paper groups don’t matter. You’re only going to get one shot, from a cold barrel, and you don’t typically get more than five seconds to spot, aim, and fire. That’s how you practice, too, if you really are there for the hunting.

 

[GoldieMI]

Dumbassery isn’t a modern invention

needs to be a T Shirt or a range bag patch at least!!!

 

[Kaldor]

Sure but the kids these days like to see chronograph output they can load into a simulator to see if what they’re shooting’s as accurate as it would be if it were only twerked somehow. They don’t trust targets, they trust “data” - even though I doubt many of the QuirkyLoads gang can define the word correctly.
If you’re not using a Lab-or-other and punching data into an interface, you’re just not withit enough to hang with the Bronies.
Bottom line is to load for a purpose. If it’s LR BR, load for paper; if it’s vermin load for that. Vermin hunters don’t chase wounded game, they just let the critters plop and suffer wherever. If you’re filling the freezer, load for the quickest, cleanest kill. Paper groups don’t matter. You’re only going to get one shot, from a cold barrel, and you don’t typically get more than five seconds to spot, aim, and fire. That’s how you practice, too, if you really are there for the hunting.

For a hunting load? Sure, minute of deer as we call it here in Wisconsin is good enough. But for longer range stuff where precision and accuracy matter? I trust my chronograph. Higher ES/SDs are acceptable at a 100 yards because your vertical stringing is less of an issue. But at a 1000? A 20 FPS ES will drop you into the 8 or 9 ring. That single digit SD offers consistency that is needed at those ranges.
I dont use Quickload or Gordons though, and Ive had a few loads done by a friend, and while it was close, QL said my ideal load was like 40.5gr on my 6 CM, it ended up being 41.2. I think its a great tool for getting some ideas, but its not the final word. Every rifle is slightly different.

 

[Kaldor]

They are also probably using good components to begin with and changing those components can be good or bad, resulting in leaving good enough alone giving a better average. Watching guys tip one dollar berger bullets was always a bridge to far for me.

Me too. Ive messed with neck turning a little bit, and on some LC 308 brass it did help a little and I could feel a more consistent seating pressure when loading. But Ive learned my lesson now, I just buy Lapua or Peterson brass for anything I expect high levels of accuracy from, and just run it.
Bullet tipping? No thanks. Same thing with primer sorting and case capacity measuring.

 

[Varminterror]

the kids these days […] don’t trust targets, they trust “data”

Targets produce data too.

 

[Varminterror]

needs to be a T Shirt or a range bag patch at least!!!

It’s my take on a saying from my (late) grandpa - he used to say “the first dumbass wasn’t born recently.” One of his brothers used to say, “there were even dumbasses back in ancient Egypt.” Naturally, between the 6 of them, my grandpa and his brothers, there were plenty of opportunities for them to label eachother as such.

 

[jmorris]

I'm currently learning to hand file chainsaw chain. Is grinding sharper and faster yep.

Not if you are in the woods and are keeping your chain sharp with the file. You don’t even need to remove it. Grinders are for people that don’t keep them sharp and they are in really bad shape.

 

[JFrank]

Targets produce data too.

It’s all in what game we are playing, I would have a tough time at PRS solving a firing solution with higher es/sd whereas others might struggle a BR trying to tune with chronograph data.

 

[KY DAN]

I learned to reload using the 3 shot group at 100 until you find a good one. Most shooting was inside 200 anyway.
Then I started reading reloading for long range accuracy. The Audette ladder seemed like a straight forward approach. I tried it and was blown away by it's accuracy.
Then I tried the OCW system. I got similar results.
The new styles all require reliance on gadgets instead of skill. It's becoming a trend in everything. Do you suck at your hobby? Buy this... Honing your skills is for peasants that can't afford to buy their "skill".

I agree with this, I have friends with 3d printers who complain about being poor craftspeople and I tell them why don't you just build it by hand???? The resounding answer I get is they don't want to fail.

Well I have been failing all my life from 1st grade to this forum.

I think people over think shooting and loading ammo, I watch the old guys at my range spend all their time tweaking rifles to make them shoot smaller groups. If it's custom built and blue printed auctioned sure take all the time in the world...... BUT IT NEVER IS it's a savage or remington 700 in shorter configuration. Just accept that some guns will only shot so well and move forward.

I am probably viewed as stupid for this opinion, my personal deer rifles loads will fire 10 rounds into a soft drink base and I am ok.

My m1a loaded with national match everything when equipped with a scope is capable of nickel size group at 100 yards and I will invest time in development.

I want to shoot and not work so much

 

[kalielkslayer]

Great example. I log for a living. You can sharpen with a grinder. It kind of works. You can use the file guide which will let you do a little better job. It you can destroy a few chains learning to free hand file. It gives you the best results if you put in the time while playing attention to every detail.

And I still pay the local shop to sharpen my chains. I know they grind way more than is necessary, shortening the life of my chains, so they can sell me more chains.

But working 40-80 hours a week and cutting firewood evenings and weekends, it was worth my time. But since I retired, I’ve given a lot of thought to sharpening my own, but file guide is the way I’ll go initially.

 

[AJC1]

And I still pay the local shop to sharpen my chains. I know they grind way more than is necessary, shortening the life of my chains, so they can sell me more chains.

But working 40-80 hours a week and cutting firewood evenings and weekends, it was worth my time. But since I retired, I’ve given a lot of thought to sharpening my own, but file guide is the way I’ll go initially.

I was so rookie I threw away a dull chain last month that had never been sharpened. My dad just bought new chain when it went dull. It's probably the same as those that buy new factory ammo instead of reload. I had no idea so I wasted a good chain. I now have a set of Oregon files in a field wrap headed my way. As a small time home gamer I'm sticking with round file. I found a show called bucking Billy Ray, that shows all kinds of good stuff about how to sharpen and tons of techniques for saftey.

 

[JFrank]

• Productivity of old timers, just like modern shooters, depends on the ACTUAL knowledge of the old timer.
  
  Dumbassery isn’t a modern invention.
  
  When I was in my early 20’s, one grey top taught me to better perform at 1,000yrds, and taught me the Audette ladder. Alternatively, I also heard from another grey top that a bullet from a bottleneck cartridge can’t reach 1,000 yards, because they’re going so fast that they “grind themselves to nothing before they get there.”
  
  Alternatively, the age of the internet has brought about much, much greater transfer of information, so modern era shooters - of all ages - have access to proven methods, newish or oldish, and have sounding boards to vet dumbassery before repeating it themselves.

  
  Unfortunately, everyone and their man bun brother ( present company excluded of course) is now an internet expert reloader with a keyboard, the conjecture returns to forums daily and gets repeated again and again..and the dumb part is people believe it and just can’t wrap their heads around some truths because it’s too far up they’re Computor.
  
  The first rule is to define the mission’ and then pick the right tools for the job.
  

 

[GeoDudeFlorida]

I agree with this, I have friends with 3d printers who complain about being poor craftspeople and I tell them why don't you just build it by hand???? The resounding answer I get is they don't want to fail.

Well I have been failing all my life from 1st grade to this forum.

I think people over think shooting and loading ammo, I watch the old guys at my range spend all their time tweaking rifles to make them shoot smaller groups. If it's custom built and blue printed auctioned sure take all the time in the world...... BUT IT NEVER IS it's a savage or remington 700 in shorter configuration. Just accept that some guns will only shot so well and move forward.

I am probably viewed as stupid for this opinion, my personal deer rifles loads will fire 10 rounds into a soft drink base and I am ok.

My m1a loaded with national match everything when equipped with a scope is capable of nickel size group at 100 yards and I will invest time in development.

I want to shoot and not work so much

Groups can be an act of self sabotage. My Remington 600 .35Rem will put a 180gr Sierra SSP into whatever I want for exactly one shot - the first shot from a cold barrel. I spent a box of bullets getting that one perfect first shot load and it has never failed me. The second, third and fourth shot are typically close - close enough for sure - but I’ve shot the heads off daisies at 30yds with that rifle, using that load. But only one. That’s what you want from a brush gun: that first shot from a cold barrel right where you want it every time. Groups don’t matter.

 

[Kaldor]

I was so rookie I threw away a dull chain last month that had never been sharpened. My dad just bought new chain when it went dull. It's probably the same as those that buy new factory ammo instead of reload. I had no idea so I wasted a good chain. I now have a set of Oregon files in a field wrap headed my way. As a small time home gamer I'm sticking with round file. I found a show called bucking Billy Ray, that shows all kinds of good stuff about how to sharpen and tons of techniques for saftey.

Billy Ray is a heck of a character
Good info to be had there.