12 gauge help..

Ah wads are Shot dependent and Not so much Hull dependent . Some hulls preform and reload better , IMO and are known as premium Hulls
Example 12 gauge I can run 7/8 1 o/z ,1 1/8 o/z using Winchester AA12SL wads in AA, Premiers , STS, Nitro, have even run them in Federal hulls . I'm still running WSL 18.5 - 20.5 Gr. and Nobody's any worse for wear :D
 
All I use are Top Gun and Gold Medal. Been reloading the Federal hulls for years without problems (Mostly 1 1/8 oz #8; 9 pellet 00 Buck, and 1 oz slug). I use Cheddite and Remington STS primers for the # 8 shot, and Federal 209A primers for the 9 pellet and Slug on the hulls and get about 8-12 loads on the hulls before they start to look somewhat tattered. Currently using HS-6 and 700X, but have used others as well.
Currently using a Ballistic Products Helix wad for the slugs and a X12X gas seal with Teflon wrap/#47 buffer for the Buck, Claybuster 12S3 for the #8 1 1/8 oz loads.

Note that the Federal LEO hulls for slugs and 00 are just Gold Medal hulls marked as LEO only (but with Federal's proprietary Flitecontrol wad). The Helix wad is the closest you can get to the Flitecontrol for slugs. Federal adds a proprietary buffer to the 9 pellet 00 which is similar in size and texture to Ballistic Product's #47 buffer. You won't get as much distance as Federal hulls do with the Flitecontrol, but most engagements are within 25-35 feet anyway.

To the OP - stick with known loads out of the manuals for now, and if you want to move from there get the loads pressure tested.
 
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entropy said:
… but Lyman' books do not differentiate between AA-CF and AA-HS hulls despite the difference in internal structure, even though the volumetric difference is small, but important for some applications.

The shells pictured look great, BTW.
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I understand that Winchester designed the 12 ga AA-HS hulls to have the same load data as the old 12 ga AA compression formed hulls.

Not so with at least 28 ga and .410 bore AA-HS hulls. The HS hulls have different load recipes from the old AA hulls. I’m not totally sure about the 20 ga AA-HS hulls, but I think they have different recipes from the old AA hulls as well.

With my MEC 600jr loaders, I have the bushings on each side of the bushing that matched published load information. The range pretty much worked fine since I never was loading at maximum published recipes.

There used to be some universal charge bars available for the MEC loaders but I understand they have been dicontinued. I have one for my .410 bore 600 jr loader as I could not get the powder charge close to the recipe using bushings.

I have a second charge bar that I could use in my 12, 20, or 28 ga 600jr loaders if necessary. I load mostly target level loads where the standard MEC charge bars work fine so this charge bar gets little use.

Finally, to add, a couple years ago I got a Dillon SL900 shot shell loader. I use it for 12, 20, and 28 ga shot shells. Hence, my MEC 600jr’s are redundant except for .410 bore. I’ll keep the MEC 600jr’s for small runs of hunting ammunition.
 
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BushMaster-15 said:
Ah wads are Shot dependent and Not so much Hull dependent . Some hulls preform and reload better , IMO and are known as premium Hulls
Example 12 gauge I can run 7/8 1 o/z ,1 1/8 o/z using Winchester AA12SL wads in AA, Premiers , STS, Nitro, have even run them in Federal hulls . I'm still running WSL 18.5 - 20.5 Gr. and Nobody's any worse for wear :D
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Wads are hull dependent but generally they are acceptable for a range of shot charges.

This one reason where using published recipe data is so important with shot shells.
 
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^^^^ this. I over charged a field load with Longshot once, not by much, but enough to wake me up right quick and in a hurry. Can't remember how I did it but I broke down the whole lot and verified it.
 
cfullgraf said:
I understand that Winchester designed the 12 ga AA-HS hulls to have the same load data as the old 12 ga AA compression formed hulls.

Not so with at least 28 ga and .410 bore AA-HS hulls. The HS hulls have different load recipes from the old AA hulls. I’m not totally sure about the 20 ga AA-HS hulls, but I think they have different recipes from the old AA hulls as well.

With my MEC 600jr loaders, I have the bushings on each side of the bushing that matched published load information. The range pretty much worked fine since I never was loading at maximum published recipes.

There used to be some universal charge bars available for the MEC loaders but I understand they have been dicontinued. I have one for my .410 bore 600 jr loader as I could not get the powder charge close to the recipe using bushings.

I have a second charge bar that I could use in my 12, 20, or 28 ga 600jr loaders if necessary. I load mostly target level loads where the standard MEC charge bars work fine so this charge bar gets little use.

Finally, to add, a couple years ago I got a Dillon SL900 shot shell loader. I use it for 12, 20, and 28 ga shot shells. Hence, my MEC 600jr’s are redundant except for .410 bore. I’ll keep the MEC 600jr’s for small runs of hunting ammunition.
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You must also consider powders have changed and is another reason Wads & Hull recipes have also .

Granted Not always but generally speaking a 1 0/z wad will go into any properly sized hull ; charge is dependent upon shot weight far more so than wad design . That in mind many wads which were available are NO longer available ,as is with Powder .

It's what makes for selling reloading manuals :D

There are different lengths to the wads, Hulls have different interior capacity. All these things make shotshells loads highly variable
Pressure should be the MAIN concern . Speaking of pressure ,I'm not only referring to powder pressure but also Wad seating pressure .

As in ALL reloading primers can make 2K lb. pressure difference in a given shotshell load ,so it's wise to consult a manual or #3 or stick with proven recipes to be safe .

Last but most certainly as important as any of the above stated items , Lead has been replaced by Steel ,Bismuth and Tungsten where waterfowl is concerned ,also plays a Major factor in recipe changes .
 
The guides to the bushings are mysterious at best. I’ve found they’re close sometimes and 2 sizes off in others. I’ve found that some are right on in the Lyman 4th edition but not in the 5th and other powders go the other way.
I check and keep notes on each powder and which edition is closer. That way if I’m using a new wad, hull, or primer with that powder I know where to start.

There are some 12 gauge powders like red dot that are fairly forgiving on component combinations. There’s usually a charge with a 1 1/8 oz load that will be within safe parameters. Some combos may be a field load and others a light target load, but 12 is way more forgiving than 20 gauge.

That said, you still need to confirm with a manual before you load. You can find one good for multiple components and be in good shape.
 
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BushMaster-15 said:
You must also consider powders have changed and is another reason Wads & Hull recipes have also .
.
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Right, but Winchester says the compression formed12 ga AA hulls can be interchanged with the 12 ga AA-HS hulls even with new, current powders and wad data.

Not so with 28 ga and .410. bore. The HS hulls are different from the compression formed hulls.
 
I will repeat that loading 19 grains or above of Green Dot with 1 1/8 oz. and a WAA-12 or clone other than the DRA-12 in the AA-HS will result in crimps that push up due to excessive stack height. I could certainly see how the 28 and 410 would have some problems with volume.
 
I've nothing against Alliant powders ,as I once was employed by Hercules Powder Company . That said I always tried using other powders beside Red or Green dot ,as it was DIRTY powder . Blue dot , NOT so much slower burn more powerful for lifting heavier loads ,thus didn't leave the residue of graphite and un-burned powder . MY personal favorite is WSL ,which mysteriously was removed and replaced by again dirtier powders ,WSF WST . Rumors were ( and I know no more about it than was printed ) WSL burned too clean and therefore more difficult to trace according to authorities . I do know a swab mop tells all after firing all the above mentioned powders and in ALL of MY shotguns WSL burned the cleanest .

I've had good luck with Most Win. and Clays powders as far as shotshell loading goes and other than dirty ,Never had problems loading any of them .
 
I find Green Dot dirty in .45 ACP, but it's fairly clean in 12 ga. Trap loads, as long as you keep the pressure up above 8000. Since that's where it shines anyway, 1 1/8 oz. 1200 fps+ loads, I've never had a problem.
100% agree on Blue Dot, but it made hellacious duck and pheasant loads! Red Dot is dirty in autos, not as bad in break actions.
 
I don't know why dirty shotgun powder should be an issue with shooters.
My powder dealer always wanted me to try 700x instead of 452 or Green Dot. I had enough plastic residue in the barrel that I needed to clean the gun anyway.
 
Lots of good advice here. This is the place to purchase most of what you need.

https://www.ballisticproducts.com/#

When I reloaded shot shells they had a better selection of products than anyone on the internet.

The 9000 is a nice press and will do anything you need it to do double time.

Shotgun powder is easy to work with and RD is a good versatile utility powder. Pressures are low so lots of fast powders work. Shot cups generally won't be found at your LGS. These days neither will powder or primers. I haven't seen any shot locally in about 5 years. Not sure where you can find that. i think it's mostly imported these days due to EPA regs.

When I was shooting every week I bought powder in 8 lb containers and primers 5K at a time. Hulls you can usually scrounge at the club.... or you could a few years ago. When I sold my reloading gear I gave a buddy 175 lbs of shot and 2-3K primers.

Win. and Fiocchi hulls seem to be the best but they all work for awhile. Just pay attention to your reloading data regarding hulls and shot cups.

Sometimes you can find some deals here.

https://www.trapshooters.com/search/430815/?q=for+sale&o=relevance
 
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Most of the shooters I was friends with used some kind of Hodgdon or Winchester powder. Usually whatever was cheapest. Plastic fouling is more of a problem than powder residue in my experience. If you want some really clean burning powder for 1 oz loads try Alliant American select.
 
CoalTrain49 said:
Lots of good advice here. This is the place to purchase most of what you need.

https://www.ballisticproducts.com/#

When I reloaded shot shells they had a better selection of products than anyone on the internet.

The 9000 is a nice press and will do anything you need it to do double time.

Shotgun powder is easy to work with and RD is a good versatile utility powder. Pressures are low so lots of fast powders work. Shot cups generally won't be found at your LGS. These days neither will powder or primers. I haven't seen any shot locally in about 5 years. Not sure where you can find that. i think it's mostly imported these days due to EPA regs.

When I was shooting every week I bought powder in 8 lb containers and primers 5K at a time. Hulls you can usually scrounge at the club.... or you could a few years ago. When I sold my reloading gear I gave a buddy 175 lbs of shot and 2-3K primers.

Win. and Fiocchi hulls seem to be the best but they all work for awhile. Just pay attention to your reloading data regarding hulls and shot cups.

Sometimes you can find some deals here.

https://www.trapshooters.com/search/430815/?q=for+sale&o=relevance
Click to expand...

I was a huge fan/customer of BPI for 30 years. Recently they always seem to be out of stock on way too much stuff. Precision Reloading has been more reliable for me.
 
Thomasss said:
I don't know why dirty shotgun powder should be an issue with shooters.
My powder dealer always wanted me to try 700x instead of 452 or Green Dot. I had enough plastic residue in the barrel that I needed to clean the gun anyway.
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I sat in the middle of flooded rice field, poncho spread in front of me, at daylight, removed the trigger from my 870 because it was locked up from Blue Dot residue. Was it out in the field water, put gun back together and finished my limit.

Blue Dot makes some great magnum loads, but leaves a lot residue.
 
Thomasss said:
Also look at what Powder Bushings you have and make sure they are dropping the right volume. Rarely do they drop what they say they will. Humidity, vibration, static powder type and even the type of powder bottle makes a difference. BUT there are two ways you can go: 1) Buy the closest one UNDER what you think you need and if need be Dremel it to match your needs. Or 2) Buy 3 to 6 in a series, beginning with one less and then more above what you need. They are numbered, and now you have several extra different ones for different possible future powders.
I've had MEC for over 50 years. Their plant is an hours drive from me. I had up to 8 powder bushings over the years. About 10 years ago I wanted close to max. charge and couldn't find the right size bushing. So I took out the bushing from the machine and started using a Dremel tool stone and then a sanding disk on inside of the bushing. There is a lot of metal to take off those things. I kept my sanding in revolving manner so to maintain the circular I.D. shape of the bushing. And it works fine. It's not pretty, but it is smooth to the touch and I kept my modification away from the top and bottom sides so it doesn't interfere with the bar travel. If the bushing gets hot, stop, let it cool, install it and drop a few charges and check the powder on a scale. I am at .2 grains under max. and that is fine because once in a while I drop max. on a charge. Note: progressive machines like ours do not vibrate as much as single stage. So at the beginning of each loading session tip the bottles back a forth a few times, so the powder flows consistently. ALWAYS grab the shot bottle first. Now I still have a couple of 50 year old bushings I originally bought just in case I ever find a powder that can use them. lol
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I knew someone who started modifying (drilling out) powder bushings to suit his purposes in the late 1960's. If he hadn't died 5 years ago of cancer, he would probably still be doing so. You and I have been using MEC's for about the same amount of time. Started with a 250 single stage after discharge from the navy in 1970 which I still have. Then got 650's one for 20 gauge (in the mid 70's) and one for 12 gauge a few years later.
 
Lots of good advice here on powder bushings and shot bars.

Lyman's 5th Edition Reloading Shotshells has step-by-step directions for using a 9000. Prepare to screw up a bunch if you've not used a progressive before. I still dump a load or two of shot on the floor every now and then. Go slow.

If you have problems adjusting the 9000, go here Search results for query: Mec 9000 | Shotgun Forum (shotgunworld.com). Curley Nohair has some of the best 9000 info on this forum.
 
koni said:
Before the book arrives, I have a trip planned to a LGS what wads and shot does anyone recommend?
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It doesn't matter.

Shotgun loads go exactly by the recipe, or nothing. You absolutely cannot experiment with shotgun loads like you can with metallic cartridge loads.

The powder companies have that information on-line, and that's what you should be using until your book arrives.
 
rfwobbly said:
Shotgun loads go exactly by the recipe, or nothing. You absolutely cannot experiment with shotgun loads like you can with metallic cartridge loads.
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Starting from loading shotshells for 40 years and then going to metalIic cartridges, I found metallic to be very limiting. It is true that starting out with shotgun reloading, a person should start with a load they think will work for them and try it for a while, however there can be a lot of variables you can play with. You have to do your research just like with metallic cartridges. For example, the shotshell powder in many recipes is shown as a maximum. You can reduce that, within limits. In fact you may find duplicate recipes that are the same but the powder volume has changed. For example, I like to shoot at 1160 fps for 16 yard trap and reserve 1200 fps for handicap all in the same 1 1/8 ounce load. Different wads can benefit your choke and patterns, but again some are interchangeable and some are not. Alliant & Hodgdon powder books are very good at showing compatible wad usage. You may also change hulls from time to time with some loads and yield different results; like reducing recoil. A big problem with shotgun loads is that there are so many variations, not all can be published at the same time, so the powder, wad and primer people publish what they think people want. Just like with metallic, find several identical recipes to confirm a recipe is a good and safe one.
 
cfullgraf said:
Wads are hull dependent but generally they are acceptable for a range of shot charges.

This one reason where using published recipe data is so important with shot shells.
Click to expand...

Guys I am barging in here, not sure where else to post my question. I am looking to create a light-ish 7/8 oz load for my wife, 12 gauge, 2 3/4 inch Rem STS hulls; probably #7 1/2 shot. Win 209 primer; Red dot--working down from 17 gr. I picked up a bag of the Claybuster substitute for WAA12 (CB 1118-12)...but I meant to buy the WAA12L equivalent. With around 14-15 gr Red dot, does it really make a difference? I also have plenty of WAA12SL equivalents. Not a huge investment in the WAA12's but if I can use em safely I'd like to. I've read elsewhere that these wads are "more or less" interchangeable, especially at these pressures. The load would approximate what I use in Cowboy Action, maybe a little peppier.
 
Some hulls are tapered inside and others are not. The wad is designed, in part, to account for this construction.

If you can find recipes for the hull and wad you want to use, you are good to go. I would not venture out into unknown territory as is somewhat acceptable with metallic cartridges.
 
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