Self-defense vs all other uses.

Armored farmer said:
Like most of you, I am primarily a recreational shooter. I grew up on quail guns and trap guns.
For me my ccws are just another excuse to buy, shoot, and carry.
I dream of carrying each and every one of my handguns on some sort of wilderness adventure.
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Lol, good to know I'm not the only one. We shell out hundreds of dollars for this (possibly imagined) purpose but there are still a lot of adventures with a lot of guns that haven't gotten past the ol imagination yet..
 
CDW4ME said:
I'm glad you said that. :)

Best choices for self defense. :neener:
9mm, 357 Sig, 40, 45,10mm

Marginal choice for self defense, as in we only carry it discontentedly in a NPE or when we can't do better. (hint: can't and won't aint the same)
380

Suitable for SD but the platform that fires them is capacity deficient, revolvers.
38 special, 357 Mag, 44, 50 (I may have omitted some like 41, but it doesn't matter)

Calibers that are deficient for self defense.
22, 25, 32 (James Bond and/or they carried 32 in Europe are irrelevant)

Disclaimers:
Yes if someone if frail, weak, then a 22,25,32 is "better than nothing" I get it, but "better than nothing" is not a goal for most.
If you like your revolver, fine, doesn't affect me, but it is capacity deficient compared to a 10+ round semi and statistics nor location change that.
If one is uncomfortable or incompetent with loaded chamber carry in a semi, they probably better off with a revolver, said by someone who obviously doesn't prefer them.
Infrequent shooters and novices are also probably best served by a revolver.
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Ironic in a lot of ways...the Revolver, is really an experts gun, yet we also recommend it as best for newbies. Heavy double action trigger takes dedication and practice to learn. Limited capacity means you better make hits, and they better be in good places. Slow to reload means you'll probably just get the initial rounds.

Not arguing. In the spirit of the thread and OP, just musing aloud after a long day in office.
 
mcb said:
A lot of people would agree with you, real or not, the perception by many is crime is going up. That does not change the premise of my original thread that what brings me here to discuss firearms is not self-defense in most cases. I have my fire extinguisher and CCW picked out. What I am going to hunt deer with next year is a far FAR more interesting topic to me. My plan to drag my old 106 year old Webley out to take an armadillo or two in the next few weeks is significantly more interesting than a new subcompact 9mm. Trying a new stytle of support bag at my next NRL22 match is far more appealing than the newest IWB holster tech.
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I agree with you. If I had my preferences we'd primarily discuss small unit tactics and hunting. I was just pointing out why the whole "self defense" genre dominates the discussion on forums like this. To some degree, I think much of it is due to many people's astonishing ineptitude at basic internet searching.
 
mcb said:
You might call this a slight bit of a rant (well probably not) but an observation that does not have a right or wrong answer.

Firearms and self-defense go hand in hand that is no doubt. But I am always impress how pervasive self-defense is in this and nearly all other gun communities I have interacted with and how often that aspect of firearms use stomps on the discussion of other applications. Maybe I grew up in a shelter life (not really) but in the overwhelming number of cases when I see some new firearm, cartridge, or accessories the first thing I think about is almost never self-defense, it's probably not even the second thing I think about. Depending on what it is the first things I think about is either hunting or competition. I am always amazed how often someone starts a thread about a firearm related subject/product and the first responses are that X would/wouldn't be good for CCW/home-defense/bugout etc.

I have five gun cabinets/safes fairly full of guns and in that moderate collection I can point to two guns bought specifically for CCW and my home defense gun is a retired competition gun. I don't buy guns for CCW/self-defense I buy guns for hunting, competition, fun. (They can all be pressed into self-defense rolls if it comes to that.)

Nothing is more contentious than any of our firearms related subjects that gets stuck in the self-defense rut. Comparing two cartridges for hunting some particular critter and things often get boisterous but comparing two cartridges for CCW and things get down right rowdy. I would be willing to bet more threads on this forum get lock when the subject touches on CCW/self-defense than any other application we discuss.

So I guess my point is that often IMHO the self-defense aspects pollutes allot of threads that I would have been far more interested in as a hunting or competition or even collectors thread. I also realize that some people come to firearms first and sometimes only for the self-defense aspects. Those people probably have no interest in my hunting or competition threads. For myself I was first a hunter, from some of my earliest memories as a toddler (pretending to be a hunter), shooting for fun with family, then a competitive shooter starting in middle school. It's not that while growing up we never used gun for defense, I was not fully sheltered having my immediate family the victim of several attacks in my teenage years and our hunting guns were pressed into a more prominent defensive use (thankfully we never had to fire shots), but its still not something I enjoy.

For me firearms are overwhelming about good times and good times are hunting, shooting, and competition with friends and family. The self-defense aspect falls into the same category as fire extinguishers. I research a good one, I learn to use it effectively, I keep it handy and well maintained. I don't really want to revisit that subject over and over.

Well that is my rambling thoughts. Feel free to ramble back at me, agree or not I would be interested in everyone's perception of this weird take on our general focus here.
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I guess I understand your angst. Conceiving firearms that I own only to be used on an attacker, for self defense, puts that gun into a certain category. Sporting/hunting guns should not cross that line, it throws a certain shade on that gun. After 40 years as an LEO, a Marine, guns are guns and some are assigned to self defense/protection. Just the way it is.
I sold my last AR15 to avoid a political dead end in the future, but I have a semiautomatic main battle rifle config. I used to shoot coyotes with my AR, but it was also my home defense gun. I have pistols that I wear every day for CCW defense role.

I also have a lot more guns that are Eddie Bauer in nature, Elmer Keith in nature, or just "this is really neat" category. They stay that way, and I should get them out to the range, out to the woods more often.
 
IMHO with much of the deterioration in our society over the last 50-60 years self defense has come to the forefront, and rightly so. As noted, hunting is really not that popular anymore, formal target shooting seems to have declined considerably. While the spread of "shall issue" CCW laws and Constitutional Carry
means many more people can exercise their RKBA in a more meaningful and everyday manner. At the ranges I go to when I fire a handgun-usually a 22, I am a cheapskate-I am the only practicing Bullseye, everyone else practicing some sort of "combat" style-silhouette targets, two hand grips, etc.
 
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In the context of self defense polluting the Im a hunter, I'm a this or that threads Im probably going to hurt somebody's feelers.
The entire reason for firearms in the first place was in an offensive/ defensive role. Common sense, no war at the time and fascination with them allowed a diferent use, hunting, recreation etc. We have strayed quite a ways from the original purpose, at least in this country, that of the defense of life from tyrants, and self defence from other hostile persons. I believe that by veering from the founders original intent of the use of arms for defense of home and country to ' lets just hunt squirrels ' is dangerous as it's easier to accommodate restrictions, laws, or outright bans believing that my firearms could never be used in defence of liberty or self, not here, not in the USA.......unthinkable. Just for hunting......yea, right. Never in our history have we needed the avalibility of firearms more than we ever have, not nessasaryly for use offensively, but the threat of it. That and deteriorating social conditions pushing all of us to a more self reliant condition. Everything else is subordinate. Its great that people, as an outgrowth of self defence have utilized firearms for hunting and competition but forgetting the concepts for which they were intended is flawed. By inserting commentary of a specific nature into a discussion, is itself a premise of the discussion. Opinions and viewpoints vary thats why we visit about things.
 
JeffG said:
I guess I understand your angst. Conceiving firearms that I own only to be used on an attacker, for self defense, puts that gun into a certain category. Sporting/hunting guns should not cross that line, it throws a certain shade on that gun. After 40 years as an LEO, a Marine, guns are guns and some are assigned to self defense/protection. Just the way it is.
I sold my last AR15 to avoid a political dead end in the future, but I have a semiautomatic main battle rifle config. I used to shoot coyotes with my AR, but it was also my home defense gun. I have pistols that I wear every day for CCW defense role.

I also have a lot more guns that are Eddie Bauer in nature, Elmer Keith in nature, or just "this is really neat" category. They stay that way, and I should get them out to the range, out to the woods more often.
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I see nearly all my guns as self defense guns, but very few of them as primarily self-defense. I don't have anything against the application of self defense, I whole heartedly support our freedom to do that with firearms. It's just that I don't necessarily want to spend a lot of time discussing that application. Self-defense with a firearm is something I will do when I have no other option and at least in my thinking I will do it with what I have at hand. If that is my single shot muzzle loader or one of my two dedicated CCW so be it. I would like to think I have made myself a very flexible and open to options when it comes to self defense. As I have often repeated in self defense threads I do not want to fall victim to the weakness of weapons. What interests me far more is discussions of hunting, competitive shooting, and other good times spent with firearms, reloading, and friends.


Risky buisness said:
In the context of self defense polluting the Im a hunter, I'm a this or that threads Im probably going to hurt somebody's feelers.
The entire reason for firearms in the first place was in an offensive/ defensive role. Common sense, no war at the time and fascination with them allowed a diferent use, hunting, recreation etc. We have strayed quite a ways from the original purpose, at least in this country, that of the defense of life from tyrants, and self defence from other hostile persons. I believe that by veering from the founders original intent of the use of arms for defense of home and country to ' lets just hunt squirrels ' is dangerous as it's easier to accommodate restrictions, laws, or outright bans believing that my firearms could never be used in defence of liberty or self, not here, not in the USA.......unthinkable. Just for hunting......yea, right. Never in our history have we needed the avalibility of firearms more than we ever have, not nessasaryly for use offensively, but the threat of it. That and deteriorating social conditions pushing all of us to a more self reliant condition. Everything else is subordinate. Its great that people, as an outgrowth of self defence have utilized firearms for hunting and competition but forgetting the concepts for which they were intended is flawed. By inserting commentary of a specific nature into a discussion, is itself a premise of the discussion. Opinions and viewpoints vary thats why we visit about things.
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I agree that our access to firearms is critical to what is means to be a free person and a free nation. I suspect I am fairly far right even for this forum on that subject even if I don't discuss it too often here. And a wonderful subject for another thread is the intersection of the first amendment and the second amendment and technology like 3D printers and the sharing of technological data on the internet. This combination has the ability to make many gun control measures pointless. But because I personally enjoy discussing hunting armadillos or or shooting USPSA matches more than discussing self defense has no bearing on the actual importance of arms in the defense of home and country. They are not competing interest. Spending time enjoying discussions about hunting or a shooting sports does not diminish the core aspect of the 2A in anyway. If anything it bolsters it, if only in that it broaden the appeal and exposure to firearms in general. The finest infantry solders for the Great War and World War II more often came from that backwoods squirrel hunter than most cadets from the military academies.

My point is that I enjoy discussing hunting and competition more than discussions of self-defense. ie another thread on the latest greatest sub-compact 9mm for CCW, revolver vs semi-auto, and similar CCW threads have almost zero interest to me currently. Not that hunting and competition are more important than 2A specific applications. I am more than happy to have a discussion of the right to bear arms and gun control and it's bearing on what it means to be a free person/nation. In fact we have relatively little discussion of that compared to CCW.
 
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I love Self Defense threads but...

It's the thin-skinned insecure whiners that feel they have to be right in every discussion that suck the air our of any interesting SD thread. I think we could do without that.

Don't worry folks, I'm not necessarily talking about anyone on this forum but I have been on quite a few different forums over the decades and I know they're out there. I don't understand why some folks can't just say, "Okay, I get it. We don't agree and probably never will, fine, moving on."

Instead, a perfectly good thread devolves into two armed camps of differing SD gun philosophies. Of course, since an unhealthy dose of Pride is involved, neither camp can concede so inevitably a Mod has to come along and lock the thread. Why? Because grow ass men become 11 year olds if you hurt their feelings by challenging what they feel is true and real.

But there's a simple solution to the madness.
h-jpg.jpg
 
defjon said:
Ironic in a lot of ways...the Revolver, is really an experts gun, yet we also recommend it as best for newbies. Heavy double action trigger takes dedication and practice to learn. Limited capacity means you better make hits, and they better be in good places. Slow to reload means you'll probably just get the initial rounds.

Not arguing. In the spirit of the thread and OP, just musing aloud after a long day in office.
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You miss my elaboration on page 2?

CDW4ME said:
Okay, to elaborate in the spirit of the thread...
I have a 22lr S&W model 41 with both barrels, a Ruger Target Government model 22 lr and a couple of other Ruger 22's. I've not shot them in a decade.
I've got a 686 S&W 6'' 357 Mag that I got new in 1987 a Charter Arms 38 I bought my wife in 1989 and another Charter snub that was my mother in-laws; those revolvers have not been shot in a decade or more. Despite that my first centerfire handgun was a revolver and I've owned various others, I'm not "into" revolvers.
I had bolt action .243 and 30/06 as well as a couple muzzleloaders, I quit hunting a few years ago and sold them all along with my bows and crossbows. I killed a couple deer with the 30/06, the .243 and muzzleloaders but those pale to the over two dozen I killed with a bow. I got done with killing.
So yes, I use to shoot 22's for fun and hunted but my primary reason for owning guns is and always has been self defense.
I'm a concealed carry enthusiast and focus my range time on shooting pistols that I carry.

And no, nobody is calling dibbs on the model 41 or pre-lock 686 - though I've not shot them in a decade my boys may appreciate them one day.
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I only have four revolvers now, despite my lack of enthusiasm for them as carry for myself I've probably owned enough to convey to you that I am not unfamiliar with the platform.
From my memory, revolvers I previously owned: Dan Wesson 44 Mag, S&W 3'' 44 mag, Ruger Redhawk 44 mag, Charter 44 special, Ruger Speed Six 357 mag, Taurus 7 shot 357 mag, S&W 442, 642, and 38 Bodyguard - all pre-lock, S&W 45 acp revolver.
 
I think much of the focus on the self defense utility of guns (especially handguns) is because concealed carry has become sort of a lifestyle. So the gun is discussed with regard to how well it fits in the lifestyle- how heavy is it? Are holsters available? Is it legal in my state? Can I conceal it with summer clothing? Etc…

A long time ago, being a hunter, fisherman, or general outdoorsman was also a lifestyle, but sadly not so much these days.
 
Zendude said:
I think much of the focus on the self defense utility of guns (especially handguns) is because concealed carry has become sort of a lifestyle. So the gun is discussed with regard to how well it fits in the lifestyle- how heavy is it? Are holsters available? Is it legal in my state? Can I conceal it with summer clothing? Etc…

A long time ago, being a hunter, fisherman, or general outdoorsman was also a lifestyle, but sadly not so much these days.
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I think this is definitely a big factor. Being a hunter was something I though of myself going back to some of my earliest memories. Having a CCW permit/gun was not something I did or could legally do until I was in my 30's. So my hunting and competitive shooting aspect of my lifestyle have been part of who I am for far longer than CCW related aspects.
 
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hobby first to me. might come in handy for SD or Hunting etc., but - I just like mechanical things and reloading and plinking or shooting steel is recreation. not going to hurt me to know how to defend myself, but it is not by any means my first reason to practice and shoot targets. it is also, just another skill to practice at and get better at. I like skills and having them, more the better, this is just another one out of many.
 
If it were not for defensive applications, I wouldn't own any guns.

Hunting is fun, but I can buy meat at the store. I can shoot game with a camera, and still practice tracking and stalking activities in that way.

I understand that others don't see it like that. But without a practical purpose, I just don't see the point in firearms. Though I don't see the point in stamp collecting or competitive darts either.
 
IMHO, it’s what sells today and brings in a lot more new shooters (and money) than the hunting arms popular in days past.

SA with “Defend your legacy” is just one example of dozens. Even the cursed media has reported that the NRA and other gun orgs have pivoted to self defense over hunting-target-sport shooting.

I did a quick mental check of the guns I own. Of the handguns haunting the safe, only 30% or so were hunting or target-oriented, and almost all of those were revolvers.

Rifles and shotguns is a different story, maybe 10% of my rifles and just one shotgun were defense oriented.

I agree that target-hunting arms are the ones I am immediately drawn to and love to look at, read/hear about and shoot. But I also see where the bread is being buttered, so SD/HD/CCW stuff is going to be a big part of the gun business and gun chat for the foreseeable future.

Stay safe.
 
That's what all the industry sources say. SD drives most of the market. A suburban Mom or Dad probably isn't interested in the esoteric long range rifle match or the slow fire 22 LR bullseye folks. They might once they got into guns but it's a long haul. Getting into competition is sometimes handicapped by the esoteric of the gamer guns unless the club is welcoming to new folks with more mundane guns. We try to be. Explaining power factors and scoring to a newbie with a Glock 19 is like when someone tried to explain Bridge to me. I kept asking what is the purpose of the game and just got Bridge gobbley-gook on obscure strategies.
 
GEM said:
That's what all the industry sources say. SD drives most of the market. A suburban Mom or Dad probably isn't interested in the esoteric long range rifle match or the slow fire 22 LR bullseye folks. They might once they got into guns but it's a long haul. Getting into competition is sometimes handicapped by the esoteric of the gamer guns unless the club is welcoming to new folks with more mundane guns. We try to be. Explaining power factors and scoring to a newbie with a Glock 19 is like when someone tried to explain Bridge to me. I kept asking what is the purpose of the game and just got Bridge gobbley-gook on obscure strategies.
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In addition to being a hunter and competitive shooter I am also an engineer and nerd (by most definitions of that term) and exploring the rules to a game is like eating candy. I read rule books to games; RPGs, board, sports, etc I never even plan to play. The USPSA rule book, as those things go, is one of the better I have read. The scoring system is wonderful bit of well thought out math. Great rules that involve guns!
 
It's also interesting to note... and particularly where SD or HD is discussed... is the general orientation. To some people, carrying a piece for SD is their primary concern. To some others, it's the complete breakdown of society/MadMax thing going on (...playing off Leon's post above... ;) ) I've generally found genuine SD carriers to be a reasonable bunch, with different opinions on carry, ammos, and things like that; I've seen some people quite cavalier about carry, while others take it a little more seriously. The TEOTWAWKI people... well, you just never know.
 
mcb said:
In addition to being a hunter and competitive shooter I am also an engineer and nerd (by most definitions of that term) and exploring the rules to a game is like eating candy. I read rule books to games; RPGs, board, sports, etc I never even plan to play. The USPSA rule book, as those things go, is one of the better I have read. The scoring system is wonderful bit of well thought out math. Great rules that involve guns!
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I had an engineer friend like that. Long range shooter with the club that did that. Typical engineer! Well thought out math, do you know what you are saying when we are dropping math requirements left and right because of some cultural concerns? That's a diversion and not for a large discussion. When I last shot, the SO comes up with a pad and shows me my hit factor, I said - hey, show me my As and Cs. That confused him.

I had to take Calculus in high school and some math electives in college. Those were the days.
 
Just to add to the point a bit. I was at an outdoor range just prior to Thanksgiving trying to get in some shooting before the winter settled in. It was a week before deer season in my state. Once upon a time having worked at this range years ago and one I have frequented for 40+ years there would have been a line into the parking lot. Last minute deer rifle sight ins were always a big push. Wasn’t the case at all. I made the comment to the RO about how things have changed. He said nobody hunts anymore. He said mostly rimfire and precision rifle. Handgun side was busier than the rifle side.
 
I think I'm the odd duck.

If it has to be black and white I'm in the self-defense camp.

The reality is my interest in guns period is minimal at best. I haven't bought a gun in five years. I don't go to gun stores. I don't go to gun shows.

I own four handguns (one of which I haven't shot in years) and three of them I bought because they were on my employer's approved list.

That's why I almost never Post in this part of the forum.
 
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wcwhitey said:
Just to add to the point a bit. I was at an outdoor range just prior to Thanksgiving trying to get in some shooting before the winter settled in. It was a week before deer season in my state. Once upon a time having worked at this range years ago and one I have frequented for 40+ years there would have been a line into the parking lot. Last minute deer rifle sight ins were always a big push. Wasn’t the case at all. I made the comment to the RO about how things have changed. He said nobody hunts anymore. He said mostly rimfire and precision rifle. Handgun side was busier than the rifle side.
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The days our Grandparents had with vast tracts of huntable land are things of the past. Since my Grandfather sold the ranch my hunting days have been pretty limited. :(

Stay safe.
 
Well, what do you expect? The Police used to exist (or so we thought) to protect us and ensure everyone followed the rules. The courts have ruled that the Police have no obligation to defend us.

If ordered to stand down by our leadership, the Police will not ensure that the rules are followed. Recent events in our major cities have proven that.

That there has been a shift toward Self Defense, under these circumstances, is not at all surprising.
 
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