Busy Scopes

Walkalong said:

Once you have used a reticle like the Burris SCR Mil pictured above with a good ballistic program, it's hard to go back.

Yes, I used to hold over and make hits like the first pic in VT's last post, but it sure is more precise doing it like his second pic ( or dialing it).

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This isn't exactly rocket science, guys have been killing deer effectively (and ethically) with plain cross hairs for years. the reason his examples are showing the need for so much holdover is no doubt a 100yd zero. It would take a special kind of "rocket scientist" to set himself up for a possible 250yd shot with a 100yd zero and a standard duplex reticle.

I know the trend is for guys to wanna play deer sniper but your chitting me IF you say a mil dot scope is a requirement to kill deer at 250 yards "ethically"

The vast majority of commonly used bottle-neck cartridge that are sighted in at 200 yds, will still be within a deer's "kill zone" at 250yds with a "dead hold", my .270 drops 2.3" at 250 from a 200 zero and my .260 is slightly over 3" drop. Shade high and you're "golden" a 10MPH 9 o'clock is roughly 4.5" at 250, again a slight shading and you're making meat.

Like I said before, more precise definitely, needed to kill a deer at the most common distances deer are actually killed.. not a chance in hell.

I have no interest or need for a super busy complicated reticle. I have duplex reticles on my hunting rifles and have killed Deer at 400 yards with a 100 yard zero. Like someone said, it ain't rocket science! But most of my shots are closer. I like mildot reticles on my Varmint rifles. I have learned to range with them and have gotten pretty good at it. I have a plain fine crosshair in my long range rifle.

Threads like this tend to go sideways and people get upset when others do not agree with them. And unfortunately threads have gone sideway too many times here lately on this forum.

And I will say this again.

Use what you like and are comfortable with. There is no right or wrong answer and it will depend on what your uses are on if a plain duplex, MIL-DOT, or Christmas tree reticle is best for you.

Each type of reticle has its use and place. A simple duplex reticle works just fine for hunting at average shorter ranges of 300 yards or less. Though some will find a MIL-DOT or Christmas tree reticle helpful for these situations. The weather does not always cooperate when we are out hunting and having holdovers for strong winds definitely help make a more precise shot placement.

Yes I still have a few 4X or 3-9 scopes with duplex reticles for hunting but all my other scopes have a MIL-DOT or Christmas tree reticle. And as my scopes with a duplex reticle need to be replaced, I will buy more scopes with either MIL-DOT or Christmas tree reticles. I find them more useful for both hunting and target shooting.

Again; to each their own, GO with what you like to use. But there is no need to argue or get upset with others that want something different.

@Chuck R. - I don’t recall anyone saying anything about needing graduated reticles for short range deer hunting.

Quite the opposite, in fact:

Varminterror said:

If you never shoot farther than a couple hundred yards - reminding long range largely doesn’t start until 800 yards - then you have no use for long range tools.

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Varminterror said:

Most people don’t shoot far enough while hunting to have use for it, but those of us which DO hunt at mid and long range do dial or hold.

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Varminterror said:

@Howa 9700 - you’re shooting short range, long range tools don’t apply. That’s fine, but casting shade at tools built for folks doing that which you aren’t isn’t very sensible.

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Varminterror said:

You’re shooting short range, you simply don’t need long range shooting tools.

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The 250yrd EXAMPLE I offered on page 1 was just meant to illustrate that even common hunters using common gear, not just “deer snipers” might find opportunities where drop and drift management is benefited by graduated reticles. I made this shot during a hunting trip with my wife’s 45-70 Guide Gun in which I expected to shoot 50-100 yards with the rifle, but was presented a longer shot on a great buck. Out of a passion for shooting, I was well practiced and capable with the rifle at 250yrds, so I took the shot, and made the shot - details of the necessary trajectory noted in the post above, copied here - DESPITE the shortcomings of the reticle used at the time.

This was simply an example of applicability for common gear for a common task - a $450 Marlin 45-70 with a $250 Bushnell Elite 3200 3-9x, firing factory ammo at a whitetail deer at a mere 250yrds… and the task would have been easier, with more confidence in point of aim, had I been using a graduated reticle.

Varminterror said:

I can say with certainty, I wish I would have had a graduated reticle instead of a simple Duplex on the scope I used to shoot the buck I harvested in 2011. Using a 45-70, I ended up holding 30” just by estimating hold in the scope, which at 250 yards, was 11.5moa, or 3.3 mils, with 10” of wind, 4moa, 1.2mils… with no reference in the reticle, and holding out in open glass, it was a hell of a lot more difficult than it needed to be.

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Varminterror said:

Which of these would be the easier shot to make?

View attachment 1135315
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I made the former, but the latter is a hell of a lot easier, and would be a far more ethical tool for the task.

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Nobody kicked your dog here. Duplex reticles work for the task for which they’re designed. Graduated reticles also work for the tasks for which THEY are designed.

But I remain to believe it’s foolish for folks to be so ready to denigrate tools for tasks, simply because they don’t pursue the task themselves.

Howa 9700 said:

For close to 50 years, only scopes we used on hunting rifles were straight duplex. Scope part of rifle was easy. You bought a 3 x 9 Leupold scope, base and rings. Mount it up, sight it in to be dead on at 200 yards and problem solved. You had your deerslayer.

My first venture into a scope with dots, etc. was with a pair of air rifles. Hawke AO scopes with simple mil dots. They look something like this:

View attachment 1135288

I don't use the dots to range and click, but have used them to change point of aim. Shooting bottle caps at 50 yards, see where the pellet hit, then move up and exchange dot for crosshair and let it fly. Once hit 9 of 10 12 gauge hulls, primer ends. Then 4 of 5 pieces of 45 caliber range brass, also on primer end. No clicks, just altered point of impact using a dot to aim with. Apparently, that is sacrilege, but it worked.

For you guys playing the long distance games, and have these busy scopes, do you know what all the dots and hashes mean and have memorized them to range with? If not, do you use them for anything?

I ask, as I recently looked thru a Sightron MOA-2 scope, and am wondering if such a scope is any better than just the plain jane duplex.......no marks at all. In a hunting situation, I can't believe there is time to do all the math and click things in. Same in a PRS shoot. So are they really useful for anything?

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I don’t care for mil dot reticles but that’s just my preference, I use a duplex for a brush gun and one minute reticles for longer range stuff and none of the super busy options appeal to me at all.
The Sightron Moa 2 has fairly thick sub tensions that are not real great for precise target shooting either. Just my opinion of course..

I just hunt on my relatives place, and dont play PRS games. So I can't comment on what it takes to be the best weekend warrior on paper. But for trophy western deer and antelope, duplex is fine to 400 yds with a modicum of practice and for a real good hunter, a good shot, 500 yds. Out beyond that it is probably time for a system of some type. And no, it has never been necessary for us.
The other day I saw a fancy guy on the internet telling me, if I didnt have a Ford Raptor I would really be lacking in the off road environment. Now when we would feed cows, we had a hill that took several tries to climb sometimes, because it was soft and had a curve right at the bottom. But guess what: a good driver with a Ford straight six got her done every time. I don't recall any starving cows because we did not have a Ford raptor. And one of the best hunters I know of took a trophy ram at 500 yds. 10,000 feet elevation with a 30-06, and a 4X Lyman Alaskan scope. One shot, one ram. There is whats nice to have, and then there is what you really need. And then there is always practice.

Guys, RGR all!

What I took exception to was this comment from VTs example, with a deer at 250yds:

Varminterror said:

I made the former, but the latter is a hell of a lot easier, and would be a far more ethical tool for the task.

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Now in the context of using a 45-70 at that distance I agree 100%. I could tell something was "different" besides just the 100 yd zero because 3MILs is a heck of a holdover going from 100 to 250.

It's all good, my dog is fine.

Most of my current scopes do have a few simple hash marks or dots on the lower reticle post to be used for longer range aiming points. For what I do I have no need for some of the really busy scopes. But they do have their place.

I'm primarily a hunter who enjoys shooting at the range year-round. For big game out to 300 yards any rifle I have shoots flat enough to make hits with very little hold over, so they aren't needed for that. But I sometimes play around at longer ranges, and sometimes want more precision at 200-300 yards than minute of whitetail. Those aiming points make it a lot easier to hit a 6" steel plate at 350 or 400 yards.

I often shoot 22's at ranges well past 50 yards, sometimes as far as 250. With a 22's trajectory some type of scope that allows you to compensate for drop past 50 yards is a must.

As far as hunting goes, IMHO that a simple BDC reticle works well. I have used a Burris with the ballistic plex E1 reticle and also use a Boone and Crockett reticle. Now, for the long range guys, those super duper compensating reticles are justified. I don't know how to use one and agree that for my purpose they are to busy. As for the guys that know how to use them, probably not so much.

Moparnut said:

As far as hunting goes, IMHO that a simple BDC reticle works well. […] Now, for the long range guys, those super duper compensating reticles are justified. I don't know how to use one

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Using a graduated reticle in a first focal plane scope is much less complicated than using a BDC in a second focal plane scope. So if a guy can figure out a SFP BDC well enough to call it “simple,” then using a “super duper compensating reticle” in an FFP scope is even moreso.

I have to agree that using any type of FFP BDC reticle, to include Christmas tree types, is easier than SFP BDC reticles. SFP reticles are calibrated for only one magnification setting, usually the highest, and will change the POI when ever the magnification settings are changed. With a FFP reticle, the POA/POI never changes no matter what the magnification is set to.

I have even switched all but one of my MIL-DOT scopes over to FFP for the same reason. One had to remember where the POI was when changing magnification with a SFP MIL-DOT. The one MIL-DOT scope I did keep is my older Bushnell Elite 4500 6-24 MIL-DOT since the reticle is actually calibrated for 12X so it makes math easier when the magnification is set at 6X or 24X. The dots are 2 MOA at 6X and 1/2 MOA at 24X. Most MIL-DOT scopes have the reticle calibrated for max magnification.

12Bravo20 said:

I have to agree that using any type of FFP BDC reticle, to include Christmas tree types, is easier than SFP BDC reticles. SFP reticles are calibrated for only one magnification setting, usually the highest, and will change the POI when ever the magnification settings are changed. With a FFP reticle, the POA/POI never changes no matter what the magnification is set to.

I have even switched all but one of my MIL-DOT scopes over to FFP for the same reason. One had to remember where the POI was when changing magnification with a SFP MIL-DOT. The one MIL-DOT scope I did keep is my older Bushnell Elite 4500 6-24 MIL-DOT since the reticle is actually calibrated for 12X so it makes math easier when the magnification is set at 6X or 24X. The dots are 2 MOA at 6X and 1/2 MOA at 24X. Most MIL-DOT scopes have the reticle calibrated for max magnification.

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I agree, buuuut about 99% of the time the BDC is getting used at the highest magnification anyway. IF I'm shooting an animal zoomed down, the majority of the time its a still hunting stalking type situation, or it's from one of my stands and the range is well under 200yds, so it's a dead hold. IF I'm using the BDC it's a distance shot and I've got time to zoom and my BDC holds are correct.

Depending on the low end, with some FFP scopes dialed down the graduations start to become useless anyway.

Chuck R. said:

I agree, buuuut about 99% of the time the BDC is getting used at the highest magnification anyway. IF I'm shooting an animal zoomed down, the majority of the time its a still hunting stalking type situation, or it's from one of my stands and the range is well under 200yds, so it's a dead hold. IF I'm using the BDC it's a distance shot and I've got time to zoom and my BDC holds are correct.

Depending on the low end, with some FFP scopes dialed down the graduations start to become useless anyway.

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There are always trade offs when it comes to choosing a FFP or SFP reticle, neither system is perfect. It is best for each person to weigh the pros and cons of each type and choose what works best for them.

I won't argue with someone's choice or if they give a rational explanation for their choice. What I do have an issue with is people that want to argue that their choice is the best and there is no use for other options.

And no I am not saying that you are being argumentative. I am just making a general statement on what I see on forums.

I like the ''busy'' Reticles for target shooting. For hunting a traditional one is fine. I hunt the woods. So no need for a BDC scope.

Another option is Leupold's CDS setup. A different way of elevation judgement vs a busy reticle. It works well with elevation but not windage. I have this on my Leupold VX-3HD and it works well.

https://www.leupold.com/custom-dial-system

This is one of the more interesting threads here for me in quite some time. Thanks for all you knowledgeable folks taking time to give opinions, explanations and post some great illustrations of what you're talking about.

I live near a Bushnell Outlet store and bought a number of scopes at good discount prices. But, I've sold almpts all of them and have not acquired a new Bushnell for years. Why? Because the reticles got busier and more cluttered. I gravitated to dot scopes, most of them illuminated. I discovered that my eyes, which are actually very good, prefer center dots. Don't like the simple duplex anymore. Last 5 scopes I've bought have all been Meopta.

Howa 9700 said:

In the category of non-busy scopes, I suspected trouble with a Leupold 3 - 9 Vari-X II I've had for several years. Sent it in to be checked and it looks like they are replacing it with a VX - Freedom 3-9 x 40 Hunt plex.

Those would have the same function, but are they the same quality? The scope I sent them cost about $180 almost 50 years ago. The one they are sending me costs about $300 today.

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Have you contacted Leupold with your concern?

I've read some comparisons from forums, and honestly I couldn't find anything conclusive, other than the normal "opinions". I was curious what Leupold had to say if you had contacted them.

Howa 9700 said:

For you guys playing the long distance games, and have these busy scopes, do you know what all the dots and hashes mean and have memorized them to range with? If not, do you use them for anything?

I ask, as I recently looked thru a Sightron MOA-2 scope, and am wondering if such a scope is any better than just the plain jane duplex.......no marks at all. In a hunting situation, I can't believe there is time to do all the math and click things in. Same in a PRS shoot. So are they really useful for anything?

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Yes they are useful for long distance shooting in the wind. It takes time on the range so that you can almost unconsciously use them as a reference point.

I started shooting PRS last year and they are helpful both for holding for wind and elevation, and for having a visual reference point for spotting misses and using that miss to intelligently adjust my wind hold.

My ballistic calculator (a Kestrel with Applied Ballistics software) tells me that I need to hold .5 mils into the wind based on a wind reading at my location. Turns out that the wind between my position and the target is actually stronger than it is where I am standing. I see a miss off the downwind side of my target and it lines up with the .8 mil position on my reticle.

That tells me that if I need to shoot another target at the same distance, that I need to hold .8 mils instead of .5 mils. Or, if the next target is farther away, I need to figure out what wind MPH that .8 mil wind hold corresponds to, and adjust my hold for the next target for that wind value, instead of the wind value given to me at my location by the Kestrel wind meter.


You will see most competitors have a dope card on their wrist or their gun, and it will usually have 3 different wind values written on it. That way, if they have to make adjustments on the fly, they will have a reference point instead of just trying to memorize it.


I wouldn't find such a reticle necessary or even useful for typical deer hunting situations. But for long range target type shooting disciplines, they have their place.

Many competitors dial their elevation and hold their wind . So the reference points on the main stadia line are the MOST useful. But there may be times where dialing isn't an option and in those times the 'Christmas tree' style reticles are very helpful.

Howa 9700 said:

In the category of non-busy scopes, I suspected trouble with a Leupold 3 - 9 Vari-X II I've had for several years. Sent it in to be checked and it looks like they are replacing it with a VX - Freedom 3-9 x 40 Hunt plex.

Those would have the same function, but are they the same quality? The scope I sent them cost about $180 almost 50 years ago. The one they are sending me costs about $300 today.

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The glass and coatings have improved so much, even in the last 20 years, that a new $300 optic will almost certainly perform better than even a $500 optic from 50 years ago.

They also probably don't have spare parts on hand to repair a 50 year old optic.


I'd say you are coming out ahead on that scenario.