London bombing mastermind arrested in Egypt

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What lets you compare genocide to not letting people in?

Nobody here discussed killing arabs or muslims. I ask to prevent innocent people from being murdered, not to promote it.

People have a right to live, but they do not have the right to get education in foreign countries on how to build bombs and murder innocent people in the country that granted them residence and education.
 
When did North Carolina add "Bomb Building 101" and "Exercises in the Mass Murder of Innocents?"

How many students from Muslim countries have studied here and either remained here as productive, peaceful citizens, or gone back to their home countries to improve the quality of life there?

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http://services.juniata.edu/library/webeval/cnnbushdeportmuslimstudents.html

President Bush does not know yet when this ban on international Muslim students will be lifted. He apologizes to those Muslims who are not brainwashed with the terrorist mentality, and was reported as saying, "They just have to realize this is how life is. Sometimes countries blow American stuff up, and then a whole bunch of people get deported."
 
Beren, I am not calling for "genocide" against Arabs or Muslims here.

But I really don't think, considering all the events since the first WTC bombing back in 1993, it would be wise to merely fling open the door to people from Islamic countries just because there is no proof that they've actually "done anything" yet.

I think that it is far too easy for Americans and folks from other Western countries to wrap themselves in a cloak of righteous liberty and assume the best about people who may actually want to kill you, me, and every other dirty infidel kuffar they can.


Here are some examples that I think shows what I am saying.

First, the column by one Dilpazier Aslam that appeared in The Guardian right after the bombing.

Aslam says all the typical, politically-correct stuff about the mean old West stereotyping Muslims, and how the poor little Muslims are just acting badly because of everything the bad, mean old West has done to them......You know, how we pick on them because of our thirst for oil, economic gain, and because we are evil racists...........


http://www.guardian.co.uk/attackonlondon/comment/story/0,16141,1527435,00.html

Mean old Westerners......they are just ignorant and stupid, picking on these poor Muslims.


But, that's not ALL Dilpazier Aslam says, either.

This article provides links to other pieces of writing by Dilpazier Aslam wherein he also says stuff like the world should be ruled by a dominant Caliphate, and that Islam should take over the world, and it's okay to lie to, hurt, and even destroy with extreme violence if need be, the "dirty kuffars" because doing so will eventually help establish Allah's order on earth.

http://dailyablution.blogs.com/the_daily_ablution/2005/07/sassy_suicide_b.html


My point is that I think many people in the West fail to realize what we are facing here.

I think people in the West fail to realize what we are facing because of all sorts of reasons. Here's another column that I think nails down a big reason why most of us fail to realize what the stakes are here.

http://www.canoe.ca/NewsStand/Columnists/Calgary/Ezra_Levant/2005/07/11/1125929.html


Basically, Beren, it is not "demonizing" to recognize that there is a strain of Islam out there that has said over and over and over in word and in deed that it wants to rule the world and destroy everything that is not Islamic, and bring everyone under the rule of the Koran and sharia.

It is not "demonizing" to recognize that these Islamic fascists use subterfuge, come from many different places, and try very hard to infilitrate by posing as moderate Muslims so they can kill dirty infidel kuffars and establish a worldwide Caliphate.

And the worst reality is that we cannot merely tell by looking who is a moderate Muslim who just wants an education and a job and a better life and who wants to kill us dirty infidel kuffars in nasty wasy.

What's more, there is also a growing body of evidence out there that even moderate Muslims who get Western educations and and better jobs and better lives sometimes turn into Isalmic fascists after the right imam or mullah gets hold of them.

hillbilly
 
It is not "demonizing" to recognize that there is a strain of Islam out there that has said over and over and over in word and in deed that it wants to rule the world and destroy everything that is not Islamic, and bring everyone under the rule of the Koran and sharia.

Agreed; that's not demonizing.

And the worst reality is that we cannot merely tell by looking who is a moderate Muslim who just wants an education and a job and a better life and who wants to kill us dirty infidel kuffars in nasty wasy.

Translated: "Because we cannot discern the true intent of any specific person from a Muslim country, we must by default assume they are rabid and treat them as such."

Heard elsewhere: "We can't tell who is going to use these military-style weapons responsibly and who is going to go on a shooting rampage with them. Therefore, we must treat all would-be gun-owners as would-be mass murderers and restrict ownership of these weapons to the appropriate civil and military authorities."

We're supposed to treat people on the basis of what they, specifically, have done. Not where they come from, regardless of whether their origin is Iran or Indiana. Letting foreign students study in our country does more net good than it does harm, by moderating the influences that would otherwise act apon those students. It's easy to hate a faceless enemy that you only know from hateful propoganda. Once you've lived among those people and seen with your own eyes, the propoganda loses some of its impact.

Treat them all like terrorists and you help ensure that's what they all become.
 
How many students from Muslim countries have studied here and either remained here as productive, peaceful citizens, or gone back to their home countries to improve the quality of life there?

Unfortunately we'll never know until it's way too late and, one day it will be too late. Also, ironically, we will have provided them the education and protection to plan. I pray it's not you're family or, any of ours. When you can guarantee me that you can point out the US Muslims that will put their country before their religion and/or their own people, then I will be with you. Unfortunately I see no way you can do that. Also, if you can tell me how we can protect ourselves and our homeland without making them leave, or at minimum stop them from coming here, I'll go along happily.

Why not other religions, races, etc.? I don't see any of them hell bent on the destruction of America and it's people.

Never before have we had another race/religion of people from outside of our country come here with their only intent to be committing murder on our innocent citizens and death to all American. I'm not satisfied with "well, it's inevitable in a free society". We can be a free society and also be a free society that uses our head and takes action when it's obviously needed to protect our people.

I also submit to you that your way of life in this country is going to end up being much more compromised the longer we continue down this path. There will end up being more of your freedoms and more of your rights jeopardized because of what we will have to do internally to try to protect the innocent from these people that hide behind our freedom. It's time to look beyond the nose our face.

Finally, In this way, a country is much like your home. Everybody is welcome in my home as long as I know who they are, they ask permission and they do no harm. But the minute one race/religion of people kill some of my family and then promise to do it again and again and not stop until we're dead, they're not going to be welcome to come and go in my home anymore.

Oh, and lets say I have taken some them into my home to live there over the years but now have found out that some of the very people I have taken in are conspiring to kill my family, I'm going to be forced to ask them all to leave since I can't tell which ones are conspiring and, since the innocent ones aren't doing anything to help stop the others or telling me who the others are. They leave it all up to me and my family.

I'm sure that some people would tell me that I have to let them stay and let them keep coming in even though the killing of my family is forcing me take measures to protect them and, those very measures are going to end up jeopardizing some of their freedom and rights of privacy in order for me to do what I have to do to attempt to keep them protected and alive.

In fact, I imagine my family members would quickly ask me to remove them and tell me it's not right to subject them to these people, especially since I am finding out there is still planning and conspiring going on for more killing and death of my family. I think they might even demand it of me. Now, if I don't take this action, who's to blame when the rest of my family ends up dead?

The minute a nuke goes off in this country, peoples attitude will change. Well, it will be a tad too late. How much more plain does it have to get, no one is making this stuff up, it's real and a real threat. Heck, they have already committed acts of mass murder and mass destruction that no one would have ever thought possible. They are still attempting, still trying, still conspiring, doing it in other free countries, changing tactics and becoming smarter, going to our schools to become educated, and so on.

We're going to look back someday and feel pretty stupid. And. we're going to assume some of the guilt for allowing them to even be here. I fear that someday, it will all be very clear to us.

Sound radical? Would you rather be forced at some point to destroy a bunch of innocent Muslims or keep them alive and just not them in our country during these times. I don't think it even qualifies as radical when you compare it to 911, bombs on mass transit, suicide bombers and threats of nukes and chemical bombs used inside this country.
 
Reasoned reply, Marshall.

I encourage everyone to surf on over to MEMRI.org and browse. MEMRI is an outfit that translates Arabic media into English.

Draw your own conclusions after reading what is said, not what we think is said.

:scrutiny:
 
The bottom line is, they are waging a religious war to the death with us, but we're playing around with a wishy-washy politically correct therapy session with them.

If we're going to win, we're going to have to get as serious as they are.
 
{shrug} a country that won't protect itself from foreign invaders with murderous intent WILL pay the price. Look at Holland. Look at England. Our 'leaders' have already stated that terrorism here is inevitable. Americans WILL die violently in their own country at the hands of foreign killers.

Our elected representatives have made a determination that those deaths will not be significant enough to take stricter measures now. For example, just last week, the Senate voted NOT to add more border patrol agents.

So live with it. Or not. There's not a damn thing any of us can do about it. And when it happens, those of us not directly involved won't be affected much at all. We'll still be paying taxes and buying cheap crap from Walmart.

Life goes on.
 
Beren wrote:

"Heard elsewhere: "We can't tell who is going to use these military-style weapons responsibly and who is going to go on a shooting rampage with them. Therefore, we must treat all would-be gun-owners as would-be mass murderers and restrict ownership of these weapons to the appropriate civil and military authorities."


Beren, this is a classic mix of apples and oranges here. You point merely does not apply in this situation.

As I said in another thread, context means everything.


American gun owners did not try twice to destroy the WTC and finally suceeded by inflicting the single greatest loss of American life on American soil since Robert E. Lee invaded the North in 1863.

American gun owners did not simultaneously bomb American embassies in two African countries.

American gun owners did not attack the USS Cole. American gun owners did not issue a document in 1998 delcaring war upon Western civilization.

American gun owners did not establish tyrannical, bloody theocracies in Iran and Afghanistan.

American guns owners did not murder 300 Russian school children.

American gun owners are not decapitating Buddhist priests in Thailand merely because they are Buddhists.

American gun owners did not kill US Army rangers in Somalia and drag their naked, mutilated bodies through the streets.

American gun owners did not bomb civilian-loaded trains in Spain and England.

American gun owners have not issued repeated calls for the entire world to be put under one oppresive religious system.

American gun owners do not actively try to kill non-gun owners just because they don't own guns.

American gun owners are not waging global jihad against those who choose to not own guns.

American gun owners are not liable to use a nuke or a chemical or a biological weapon against a US city because they see Americans as "dirty kuffars" and the US as an agent of Satan.

Does this help make the situation a bit more clear for you?

hillbilly
 
thoughts?
Al Qaeda operating procedure is to do numerous dry runs of the terrorist mission so that the only unusual thing when they go out for the actual attack, is that they actually do it. With that in mind it is easy to see why they purchased round trip tickets etc etc. It is pretty shocking that that one guy blew himself up when he had a small child, but someone crazy (or brainwashed) enough to blow themselves up is crazy enough to do just about anything I guess.

I can't remember the last terrorist attack (in the west) that didn't have an conspiracy theory about it. If there was one, the conspiracy was probably just covered up too cleverly :eek:
 
Treat them all like terrorists and you help ensure that's what they all become.

I tend to agree: but the flip side of this doctrine -- doing nothing until someone commits terrorist activity -- is somewhat problematic. Really, "I'm torn". To presume something [the potential for terrorist activity] about a group or individual is un-American, to do otherwise seems like the height of unfettered idealism -- and not highly intelligent.

Still, "I agree".
 
Never before have we had another race/religion of people from outside of our country come here with their only intent to be committing murder on our innocent citizens and death to all American.
No but we did have one of the most successful and long lived state sponsored terrorist organizations in history, who's only intent was the death and subjugation of every other race and religion except theirs.
Maybe we should have just locked up all Southern Baptists back then
 
Ezekiel....yes, that's the problem.

How do we keep a handle on folks who really do want to kill us, and do so without infringing on our own rights and our way of life?

Anybody got any ideas on how to do that?

How do you protect yourself from jihadist nutjobs who are willing to die and become Allah's martyrs while preserving and protecting your freedom?

I love my freedom.

I live a mile down a dirt road on 30 rural acres to maximize my freedom. I gladly choose to do without city police protection, city fire protection, or city water and put up with a constantly dirty vehicle for my freedom.

But I also know that once a jihadist detonates a dirty bomb, or a tactical nuke, or releases a chemical or biological weapon in a major US city, the damage to my freedom will be very great.

I don't think any of us can imagine what the aftermath of such a thing would actually be like.

What can we do in the meantime to protect ourselves and maintain our freedoms?

hillbilly
 
I can tell you this, If a nuke goes off here in the US there will be a lot of dead innocent Muslims when we get done retaliating "over there". It would truly be in everyone best interest if Muslims everywhere, stood up against terror and worked very hard with us now. Not standing up and doing anything out of fear, is not real healthy for them in the long run. I guess they figure they'll take their chances? Or, they really are not sure they want to help us? :scrutiny:
 
thoughts?

Something like this will prove eventually to be closer to what happened than any current official story. Cui bono? Blair and the new world order crew.

It's the people that believe the "we've caught the mastermind" stories that need the tinfoil. The simultaneous mock drill story is a fact. There was one on the morning of 9/11/01, too. :scrutiny:
 
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