Throwing vs weighing propellant

I don't think there's a whole lot of difference really. I mean, if High Power shooters can load their match loads on a progressive, then...seriously, am I going to notice a difference in my plinking loads?

As for my technique, I will use a powder thrower for pistol, especially stuff that is for plinking/fun. For rifle, I will throw the powder, and weigh every 5th round to make sure it's on, and trickle it out to make sure. But, at least in my thrower and with Varget, that seems to be a waste of time, cause it throws amazingly consistant charges.

"...by volume..." No. Volume means nothing. Volume means nothing more than how much space does a given load fill. Who cares? Jiggle a case and the volume changes. The weight of a given powder charge is the only thing to consider.
Even with a progressive press you should check the weight of the powder. Especially at or near max loads.

There is a school of thought that volumetric powder charging is more accurate than hand weighed under certain conditions, personally I think it's probably too close to call either way with most good guns/loads. H322 will behave for you , not sure about Benchmark - never used it.

Ray

Volume means nothing more than how much space does a given load fill. Who cares? Jiggle a case and the volume changes

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Would you care to expound upon that a bit? I would love to know how you can violate the laws of physics with a little bit of "case jiggling". Your statment reads like you can change case volume, which is impossible without a physical deformation of the case. I'm not trying to be a wet-towel, but you are being a little misleading in that statement. You are assuming that the inital powder drop doesn't stack well, which is not always true.

Volume as a measurement method is equally as viable as weight. You simply have to ensure that the volume filled is comparable between each load and the powder you are using has a consistent size/density. The latter, given modern production methods can often times be taken for granted. Ensuring a viable fill each time is accomplished by vibration in the mechanism and other passive or active devices in the measure. That is why you can get a powder measure, which uses volume as its measurement method, to produce charges that are +/- .1 grains. Ever look at how consistent a powder dipper is when used properly? Volume can be extremely accurate provided the material you are metering is also very consisten in size/density/shape.

Try your measure with each powder that you intend to load and determine if it is accurate and consistent enough for your needs. If the powder measure is incredibly consistent then you can adjust the "offset" compared to make it hit whatever weight you want. If it isn't, use your scale. I bet that you probably won't be able to outshoot your powder measure with plinking type loads that you are running on a progressive.

The short form of my argument goes: "Because all powder manuals give charges in weight, not volume." Weight is the only way to be sure. If I'm using a different bushing, I even weigh charges of powder for my shotgun press. When I'm working up loads, there is never any question in my mind that powder must be weighed. I never trust the powder bushing charts printed by the manufacturers of those measures that employ them.
In my experience, flake, ball, and short stick powder such as H322 can be relied upon to meter by volume through a good measure, once the weight has been set and verified by a scale. I also check what the measure throws periodically.

{Note that I do not say "YMMV." I don't believe this is optional. Many years ago, a friend of mine who didn't weigh ended up with 5K (that's five thousand) blue pill .38 Specials. That's a lot of bullets to pull.}

As was mentioned, volume measurements work well so long as the powder is consistant.

When changing lots of the same powder, it is ALWAYS necessary to re-check the weight being thrown and adjustments made to throw the correct charge.

I use a lot of pulldown military surplus and weigh every charge to eliminate the variations that would show up from using the inevitably mixed lots.

No Deavis. :banghead: ..He didn't say he changed the volume of the case. He (Sunray) changed the volume of the powder thrown by jiggling the case. You know...Like when you fill a 3 gallon bucket with dirt then you pack the dirt down and you have changed the area that the dirt took up and can add more dirt. Got it???

By the way Deavis...How ya doin'..

Oh Deavis...Almost forgot. How's the weather down there. The reason I ask is we (NAVSUPSALV) are in Battonrouge helping with the storm damage. We geared up yesterday to also go to your area if things got out of hand with Rita.

No...Yes...Sometimes...I gave up volume charging cases a long time ago and used a RCBS 5-0-5. Then about 10 years ago I went to a RCBS electronic. Using volume can vary quite a bit IM not so HO...

I've shot benchrest for years. Long ago I tried to shoot a difference between massed charges and thrown charges in both PPC's and triple deuces: I'm not enough of a rifleman to do it (and I've won my share of benchrest competitions- though I freely admit that I've never participated in a major shoot- I haven't taken the time away from work and family to participate).

I follow the practice of most competitors in loading between the matches in a shoot. I've never taken a scale to the range. With some lots of N133 & H322 I've never weighed a charge for my PPC's: in working up a charge with a new lot of powder I've simply backed off my old Culver or currently used Harrrell measure by 18 or 20 "clicks" and worked up for maximum accuracy. What I'm saying is that so long as I'm using a safe load I don't find it necessary to know what the mass of that load is.

That said, traditional benchrest is a short range game; it's not shot at over 300 yards. I'd sure test massed charges against thrown charges were I loading for longer range, particularly if I to elected to use a cartridge like the .308 at 1000 yards. There, some bullets may, in some loads, enter the "transsonic zone" as they approach the target. That might (or very well might not) have a practical effect on accuracy depending on a number of factors.

Bob

No Deavis. ..He didn't say he changed the volume of the case.

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really?

Jiggle a case and the volume changes

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There is no mention of powder volume in that sentence. The subject of that sentence, as written, is case volume. The verbs all modify the subject, which is case volume. It is a poorly written explanation of what he is trying to describe and not at all clear. I know what he meant and I immediately point out that as applied to a case volume his statement is incorrect. Then to be clear, I note that his statement as applied to a powder volume (with the reference to powder stacking) is conditional upon how the powder is dropped, its physical cahracteristics, and the method of drop.

Don't bang your head, just write clear responses that make your point as obvious as possible. Not everyone is an expert reloader with as many years of experience as some of you.

The commercial loader I get my supplies from meters all his rounds by volume. He has specific powder cutout plates for specific powders. Since the manufacturers are so consistent, he very rarely sees much variation in weight.

As far as weather, family in Houston is good, no big damage. Thanks for asking.

I had reason to spend some time at the Lake City Army Ammunition Plant east of Kansas City a few years ago.

They load the .308s (7.62 NATO) on WWII era loading machines. Individuals carry trays of powder (like plastic thingies maybe 1 1/2 inches thick) with like 15 or 20 rows of 15 or 20 cavities up to a machine which dumps the powder into those cavities and wipes across the top to level the tray off and then they individually carry the tray to another machine that dumps the powder into the cases.

I yam sure somebody weighs something somewhere, but I never saw it.

In another building there are a bunch of machines which load the 5.56mm. If I remember correctly, each machine puts out 1100 rounds per minute. It is a big spinning thingy with maybe 100 to 200 rounds on the carosel type thing at a time as it goes around.

I yam pertty sure that those rounds are loaded volumetrically as well.

Hey, if Lake City does it, who am I to quibble?

"...Your statment reads like you can change case volume..." Geezuz. Deavis, your right. It does sound like the case volume changes. How stupid of me. It doesn't change the case volume, but jiggling the case does allow more powder into a case. And that can cause serious grief.
"...just write clear responses that make your point as obvious as possible..." Exactly. Thanks, Deavis. Everybody needs an editor.

Couple of thoughts...

Sunray, thank you for your well considered second post. You had me worried there for a moment.

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The proof of accuracy is in the shooting. It is the group size that determines which is better; if one is actually better than the other.

Consider this; in a .308 Winchester loading, .5 grains of powder is not enough to be noticed in terms of velocity difference and bullet drop out to 600 meters and probably anywhere.

I've loaded weighed charges in weighed cases with weighed bullets using identical primers and case preparation techniques - including crimping or lack thereof. The standard deviation was greater for a single charge weight than the average difference between 39 grains and 39.5 grains.

A decent volumetric measure will provide more than adequate uniformity for most loads. I've got a Frankfort Arsenal measure from Midway I use for my sniper rifle loads. I get rather good groups (.500-.600") with thrown charges. As Sunray implies, just keep your throwing consistent.

Listen to the benchrest man. He's got a more expensive measure, but he still throws.

Yes, you can weigh charges and get identical charges. They just don't help your groups.

Agreed.

I shoot a lot of highpower competition and I seldom weigh individual charges. I never weigh for 200 & 300yd loads and occasionally do for 600yds, although it doesn't seem to make a difference. Even IMR4064, which is everyone's least favorite for consistant metering, will give me the necessary 0.5-1.0MoA when I shoot the charges that drop out of the powdermeasure. I shoot the M1A and that's about as good as you can get with that rifle.

I use a Harrell measure these days and I get +/- 0.1grs 90% of the time, with maybe 2% being at worst 0.3grs out. I used the Dillon measure for a long time--a little more variable--but still no measurable difference on paper.

Ty

I find the mechanical dispensers to be accurate, reasonably quick and easy to use. Because of that, I use one on every charge for rifle and weigh everything. I have a system worked out so I rarely if ever wait on the dispenser.

There have been repeated articles in Precision Shooting comparing weighed and thrown charges (there may have even been one or two in Varmint Hunter). With correct technique and equipment, either method works fine but volumetric is much faster.
For most loading I only use a scale when adjusting a Uniflow, then check about every 10th load (at most). Seldom is there any change. A quick visual check for consistency in a loading block and the bullets are seated.
For handgun ammo in an RCBS 4x4 I check about one round every 25 for weight after setting up.
One thing that made my Uniflows (one large and one small with micrometer attachments) throw perfectly consistent charges was using a baffle plate. This removes the varying weight of the powder column from the measuring cylinder. A consistent amount of powder is above the measuring volume but below the baffle plate.
A consistent technique is required to get good volumetric throws. A firm knock at the top and bottom of the measure swing (some swear by two knocks) is easier to do then prevent any variation. Practice makes perfect, but once you have a consistent method down you can produce more than adequate uniformity, even with larger stick powders.

I fill the cases up,compress them and seat the bullet. Works for BP in 45/70.

I'm not a Benchrest shooter, but I do dabble in NRA Highpower, both Across The Course (200-600yds) and Long Range (600-1000yds), as well as 'precision rifle' aka tactical matches.

One, it seems like it does matter a bit what kind of powder you are using. Something that meters like sugar, like Ramshot TAC or Win 748... there's just not much point in weighing it, period. The powder measures throw it close enough to perfect every time. The short extruded powders like N140, Varget, RE-15, and H4895... for short yard lines (200-300) I think it'd be damn hard to really tell the difference btwn weighed and thrown charges on the target. I haven't been able to yet. The possible exception would be if you are running a red-line load, or happen to be right on the ragged edge of a 'node' to begin with. In the center of that node, you can throw all day long. Right on the edge of it and you might see a strange shot here and there w/ throwing. I tend to try to find the center of the node anyway (okay, the 'upper' center ;p ) so it doesn't much matter to me. A long extruded powder like IMR 4064, H4831, H1000... I think throwing becomes an act of faith here. Most powder measures start throwing some pretty wide spreads, as much as plus or minus a half grain (!!!) w/ some of these big stick powders. You can throw if you want, but it makes me uneasy. Uneasy and lack of confidence in one's load is not good.

Two, and this is kind of related to One... short range aka 'point blank' BR shooters throw charges almost exclusively, and obviously, do very, very well doing so. A lot of HP shooters throw charges and load progressively, but a surprising number still load on a single stage and weigh charges, at least for 600yds and beyond for the mental factor if nothing else. I'm not sure I've heard of a serious competitive BR shooter playing the long range game (600-1000yds) that throws their powder charges... but then they tend to use the big nasty log stick powders mentioned above, and the level of consistency they require just can't be done w/ a measure and those powders, even the one or two that digest stick powders OK (Lee Perfect Powder Measure, w/ the teflon wiper... you laugh, but the $250 Harrell's I've seen gagged on Varget, much less H4831!). These are the guys purchasing laboratory grade scales that read down to btwn 0.01-0.03gr (single kernel of stick powder) in efforts to minimize ES/SD. I'd rather doubt they'd be doing that if volumetric measuring worked for their application!

In summary, it seems to be a matter of what kind of powder you're using, how far you are going to be shooting (i.e. is the velocity variation going to actually affect your shooting), and the level of precision required (yes, HP targets are a bit on the generous size compared to a competitive top-level 600-1k yd BR group). No big surprises here, and no big absolutes. Test it, see if it works for you, and carry on!

YMMV,

Monte

I use a Uniflow with baffle. I mainly load -06 based wildcats with big stick powders like 4350, 4831, 4064, etc. I weigh all my loads, mainly because with these powders, you want to be near max loads. While the Uniflow works great with ball powders, and to some extent with "SC" powders, you can get some pretty wild variations with the big sticks. I use a Redding model 2 scale, which is sensitive enough to weigh one kernel of the big sticks, and even when setting the Uniflow more than 1/2 gr underweight, I sometimes have to pour some back. For peace of mind, if nothing else, I'll continue to weigh mine. I'm surprised nobody has mentioned volume/weight changes with humidity?