Hair triggers legal problems?
- Thread starter LAR-15
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Hkmp5sd
Member
Maybe...maybe not.
Massad Ayoob says yes. He claims even in a legal shooting, the BG and/or family can take you to civil court and try to convince a jury you didn't mean to shoot him and therefore are negligent.
Massad Ayoob says yes. He claims even in a legal shooting, the BG and/or family can take you to civil court and try to convince a jury you didn't mean to shoot him and therefore are negligent.
scott.cr
Member
I don't think the fact that you're using a "target" trigger-type pull weight would be a liability as much as the increased odds of an unintended discharge!
Define "hair trigger"?
You can look at it one of two ways:
1) If the trigger pull is too tough for you to hit a target reliably, then it's a definate liability - in the sense that it's doing nothing for your self defense
2) If the trigger pull is measurably less than the company recommendations, then it's a potential legal liability. Litigators are paid a lot of money because they know how to make arguments, and how to pick juries. If you get the right attorney in front of the right group of jurors, the argument that a person purposefully made his/her handgun more deadly by lightening the trigger pull can be a convincing argument. Especially when it's backed up by a gun company's published admonishments against making any changes (or using reloaded ammo, or making any modifications etc...) to their product.
You can look at it one of two ways:
1) If the trigger pull is too tough for you to hit a target reliably, then it's a definate liability - in the sense that it's doing nothing for your self defense
2) If the trigger pull is measurably less than the company recommendations, then it's a potential legal liability. Litigators are paid a lot of money because they know how to make arguments, and how to pick juries. If you get the right attorney in front of the right group of jurors, the argument that a person purposefully made his/her handgun more deadly by lightening the trigger pull can be a convincing argument. Especially when it's backed up by a gun company's published admonishments against making any changes (or using reloaded ammo, or making any modifications etc...) to their product.
Standing Wolf
Member in memoriam
I refuse to live in fear of criminals or lawyers.
benEzra
Moderator Emeritus
Ayoob cites a few cases in which a prosecutor tried to allege that the gun fired accidentally, instead of a deliberate self-defense shooting, and used the fact that the gun had a light trigger pull to argue that it was an accidental discharge, hence the verdict should be manslaughter instead of justifiable self-defense. I think things turned out OK in the case that comes to mind, but with a different jury things could conceivably have been different.
In a civil trial, the plaintiff could also allege an accidental discharge to try to collect from your homeowner's insurance (they couldn't put their hands in that pocket if the shot was deliberate, but they might could if it was accidental).
I agree with others in this thread that your main liability with an extremely light trigger on a defense gun is that you might, indeed, accidentally fire the gun when you didn't mean to, and that could indeed end up being a manslaughter case--or you could accidentally shoot a family member when you grab the gun in a hurry, or whatever.
That's one reason I like my DA/SA 3913LS...fairly heavy first-round trigger pull, but if I do have to shoot, followup shots will be light and crisp. Crunchentickers rock...
In a civil trial, the plaintiff could also allege an accidental discharge to try to collect from your homeowner's insurance (they couldn't put their hands in that pocket if the shot was deliberate, but they might could if it was accidental).
I agree with others in this thread that your main liability with an extremely light trigger on a defense gun is that you might, indeed, accidentally fire the gun when you didn't mean to, and that could indeed end up being a manslaughter case--or you could accidentally shoot a family member when you grab the gun in a hurry, or whatever.
That's one reason I like my DA/SA 3913LS...fairly heavy first-round trigger pull, but if I do have to shoot, followup shots will be light and crisp. Crunchentickers rock...
I wonder about this. If no charges are filed against the shooter for homicide, then it must mean that it looked like a self defense shooting. Therefore the shooter was justified in feeling threatened. I don't see how saying "I shot him in self defence" doesn't negate the Civil Suit allegations.Hkmp5sd said:
"He broke in, threatened me and my family. I felt we were in danger, drew my gun, pulled the trigger". Heck, if I were on the jury, I say case closed, lets call it a day.
Then again, I don't make the rules.
Too Many Choices!?
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Are hair trigger a liability?
ONLY IF YOU SHOOT THE WRONG PERSON
ONLY IF YOU SHOOT THE WRONG PERSON
Double Naught Spy
Sus Venator
A lot of things can be argued in a civil court. It doesn't mean they will be believed or influence the outcome of the suit. Ayoob makes a lot of legal claims in this sort of arena that don't seem to come true either. You would thing that with more than a quarter century of publishing articles, he would have a few cases to support the contention of how a light trigger was the cause for the winning of a civil suit for a gun intentionally fired at another, but he has never presented such information about which I am aware.
He has also claimed that it could be a problem in criminal court, but that has yet to materialize.
Strangely, Ayoob seems to discuss the matter almost exclusively in regard to pistols. There are a lot of folks with light triggered hunting long guns and those long guns get used in self defense, but apparently lightening a long gun trigger for hunting and just happening to use that long gun in self defense is perfectly fine. I can't recall Ayoob ever talking about the horrors of a light triggered leverl gun.
The sad thing about Ayoob's teachings are apparent in this thread. You have a bunch of folks in fear from his legal mumbo jumbo (and note that Ayoob is neither a lawyer or a judge) paranoia and making self defense decisions not based on actual threats to themselves, families, homes, or work, but instead based on what might potentially happen in court after the person has been successful in negating the threat. His paranoid fears are bantered around like fact and the bottom line is that they are not fact and not necessarily in the best interest of gun owners.
He has also claimed that it could be a problem in criminal court, but that has yet to materialize.
Strangely, Ayoob seems to discuss the matter almost exclusively in regard to pistols. There are a lot of folks with light triggered hunting long guns and those long guns get used in self defense, but apparently lightening a long gun trigger for hunting and just happening to use that long gun in self defense is perfectly fine. I can't recall Ayoob ever talking about the horrors of a light triggered leverl gun.
The sad thing about Ayoob's teachings are apparent in this thread. You have a bunch of folks in fear from his legal mumbo jumbo (and note that Ayoob is neither a lawyer or a judge) paranoia and making self defense decisions not based on actual threats to themselves, families, homes, or work, but instead based on what might potentially happen in court after the person has been successful in negating the threat. His paranoid fears are bantered around like fact and the bottom line is that they are not fact and not necessarily in the best interest of gun owners.
Hkmp5sd
Member
One must remember that part of Ayoob's income in as an "expert" court witness. Whether or not it really happens, he has to preach the sky is falling to drum up business.
bogie
Member
Personally, I wouldn't have a problem with a 1.5-2# single action trigger on a handgun or a shotgun... Then again, I actually 'control' 1.5 _ounce_ triggers on my bench guns...
jnojr
Member
Hkmp5sd said:
He makes a lot of such claims. None, to my knowledge, have been borne out. Sure, it's always a possibility. But if an overzealous DA is going to go after you, or a BGs family is going to sue you, they're going to do it no matter what. having a trigger pull that isn't "too light" isn't going to help.
The biggest threat from havin ga trigger that's too light (IMO) is the way a sharp attorney will paint the gun owner.
"He had honed his deadly art"
"He made himself into a killing machine"
"Through single-minded repetition, firing thousands of lethal bullets, he made sure that he could kill, at any time or any place he wanted"
"His highly customized weapon had been altered to ensure that missing that killing shot was all but impossible"
Ad Nauseum.
I took a class once, taught by one of the best-paid criminal defense lawyers in the country, on what NOT to say when on the stand. He gave us example after example of how you could innocently do or say the wrong thing... and give "The Wolf" an opening to use.
Trust me... you do NOT want to make a mistake with "The Wolf" at your door.
"He had honed his deadly art"
"He made himself into a killing machine"
"Through single-minded repetition, firing thousands of lethal bullets, he made sure that he could kill, at any time or any place he wanted"
"His highly customized weapon had been altered to ensure that missing that killing shot was all but impossible"
Ad Nauseum.
I took a class once, taught by one of the best-paid criminal defense lawyers in the country, on what NOT to say when on the stand. He gave us example after example of how you could innocently do or say the wrong thing... and give "The Wolf" an opening to use.
Trust me... you do NOT want to make a mistake with "The Wolf" at your door.
SMMAssociates
Member
What CeeTee said....
Don't give 'em the opening.
Don't remove manufacturer's safety devices.
Don't reduce the trigger pull.
Do indicate that any other mods you made (beavertails, sights, extended safety levers, grips, etc.) are for improved control (safety) and accuracy.
If the BG's family are trying to treat the situation like a lottery win, it's probably better to be shown as a skilled firearms owner than a trigger-happy amateur. 'Cause the BG's lawyers will try anything they think they can get away with.
Beware, too (Paranoid-R-Us), of being accused to being too good. "Why did you kill my client's 'good boy' when you could have just shot the gun from his hand?" Be prepared to hear stuff like this....
I agree that Mas gets carried away, but if he's only right once in a while, and that's when it's your turn in the barrel, it might be better to have listened to him.
Mas Ayoob will be on a webcast at Officer.com on the 13th:
http://www.officer.com/live/2005/ayoob/121305_promo.html
Might be worth a look....
(I have to remember to sign up....)
Regards,
Don't give 'em the opening.
Don't remove manufacturer's safety devices.
Don't reduce the trigger pull.
Do indicate that any other mods you made (beavertails, sights, extended safety levers, grips, etc.) are for improved control (safety) and accuracy.
If the BG's family are trying to treat the situation like a lottery win, it's probably better to be shown as a skilled firearms owner than a trigger-happy amateur. 'Cause the BG's lawyers will try anything they think they can get away with.
Beware, too (Paranoid-R-Us), of being accused to being too good. "Why did you kill my client's 'good boy' when you could have just shot the gun from his hand?" Be prepared to hear stuff like this....
I agree that Mas gets carried away, but if he's only right once in a while, and that's when it's your turn in the barrel, it might be better to have listened to him.
Mas Ayoob will be on a webcast at Officer.com on the 13th:
http://www.officer.com/live/2005/ayoob/121305_promo.html
Might be worth a look....
(I have to remember to sign up....)
Regards,
goalie
Member
Hkmp5sd said:
You cannot sue someone in Minnesota for legally using deadly force in self defense. That means Mas is wrong, at least where I live.
Shortly before the big change-over in law enforcement circles from revolvers to pistols, a number of major police departments either had their present guns modified to double-action only, or bought new ones that came that way. The principal reason was to have an answer to the "hair trigger went off when it wasn't supposed to" argument. In more recent times, many departments that use Glock pistols have ordered them with heavier trigger pulls.
Somehow I think there must be a reason behing all of this...??
Somehow I think there must be a reason behing all of this...??
Graystar
Member
Only if one can explain how that lessens the fact that someone was threatening your life.LAR-15 said:
SMMAssociates
Member
Goalie:
Problem is that all states don't protect their citizens the same way....
And some ain't happy about it yet (OH)
.
Regards,
Problem is that all states don't protect their citizens the same way....
And some ain't happy about it yet (OH)
.Regards,
one eyed fatman
member
Standing Wolf said:
Extremely well said.
goalie
Member
SMMAssociates said:Goalie:
Problem is that all states don't protect their citizens the same way....
And some ain't happy about it yet (OH)
Regards,
No, the problem is people making blanket statements about civil liability in gun rags, when, as you pointed out, many states are quite different. In Minnesota, you cannot take me to CIVIL court after a shooting unless I am found CRIMINALLY guilty. That set of circumstances makes the advice of people such as Mas wrong. Period.
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