7.62x39mm Accuracy

nice looking rifle. no target pics showing up though.

would really like to see them.

You don't have to sell me on it. I have a bolt action 7.62x39 that doesn't have the frills yours has, and it still does acceptable groups with factory loads.

Bluehawk, it is not bedded, and it does have the single set trigger. It's currently wearing a 4X Bushnell scope, couldn't tell you what rings. As far as factory loads go, I've been getting good results from Federal's Powershok line. They load a softpoint bullet that is an excellent candidate for coyotes out here, although I have not hunted them as of yet. Recoil is light, action smooth, and if I feel like blasting away with it I can do so inexpensively with Wolf.

jmm

i can see them all now. dunno why they didn't show to me earlier.

I think the 7.62x39 has some potential. However, the platform has always been crude.

I would like a CZ myself (and now Remington is importing what was Daly's Zastava platform).

Good to see someone show it's not the rock that others have cast it as.

Makes me want one even more

I have a cheap Chinese SKS in that caliber. My son whipped up some handloads for it and with iron sites it got 100 yard 2 inch 5 shot groups.

I spent an embarassing amount of time coupling a Russian SKS action to a Shilen heavy barrel and then handloading every possible powder and bullet available. The best I could average was a little over an inch. Sure there were 1/2" groups once in a while, but just as many 1 1/2" groups. What really made me laugh was an article in a mid 90's Gun Digest where some other fool made a heavy barreled bolt gun in 7.62x39 that didn't do much better! There are some cartridges that are inherently accurate ( 6mm PPC ) and some that aren't!

I built my 7.62x39 AR partly because I was curious to see how accurate the ammo really is. Also partly because 7.62x39 is so cheap and easy to get.

Here's my results of 5 shot groups of factory ammo at 100 yards from my AR - free floated, heavy barreled, shooting off a rest with a scope:

Barnual HP - best 5 shot group of 1.75", 4 groups averaged - 2.05".

Silver Bear "Effect" - best 5 shot group of 2.54", 4 groups averaged - 2.72".

Sellier & Bellot FMJ - best 5 shot group of 2.06", 4 groups averaged - 2.39".

I think the 7.62x39 has some potential. However, the platform has always been crude.

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I agree. The groups I got are very similar to the better groups I get from surplus 7.62x51, 30-06 or 7.62x54. However, there is no way I can get these kind of groups from any of my SKS or AK rifles.

Have to agree that most of the bad accuracy rap comes from the most often encountered platforms: SKS, AK-clones, and Mini-30. What they all have in common is that there is a significant mass with one or more direct contact point(s) on the barrel in-motion during the firing cycle while the bullet is still in the bore. This is going to affect the vibration harmonics pattern in a more-or-less random fashion, which obviously will have a negative impact on group size. The "generous" Warsaw Pact military tolerances found in most of the two former examples don't help a lot either.

I'm not real surprised that DMK's AR will group into about half-or-better of what we generally see out of an AK or SKS with the same generic ball ammo. With tighter tolerances and no moving parts impinging on the barrel, it groups more like the bolt guns. QED.

FWIW, there's a fellow at my club with a Ruger BA carbine in 7.62x39 that'll group five rounds into a consistent MOA with handloads, and 2" or a bit under with most brands of ball.

Jimurphy, you went too far in the accuracy quest.

You didn't need to change the barrel. A couple years ago I built a "what-if" benchrest/target SKS, grinding off anything that wasn't needed to shoot groups, Kivaari trigger, slimline muzzle brake, unitized receiver scope mount, glass bedded receiver and chamber area, no front sight, minimal gas tube, etc. With my Accurate 1680 and IMI weight-sorted 123gr bullets, this gun will put 5 rounds into an inch at 100 yards off the bench. I also consider it to be every bit the deer rifle a .30-30 Winchester is, keeping ranges similar. Maybe if I put a Krieger barrel on it, it'll group into 1/2" at 100 yards...





Is the 7.62x39 M43 Soviet round capable of accuracy? Certainly, from the right platform. Heck, it's the parent round of the current PPC benchrest craze.

This is the same handload fired from a Bulgarian SLR-95 AK variant at 50 yards. I just wish it wasn't blowing the target frame around that day:



Keep in mind that a cartridge's accuracy potential is only as good as the construction of the round (consistency round-to-round) and how well-mated the round is to the delivery system. I've seen very few 7.62x39 bolt guns that won't group the round decently, be they custom Mausers, CZ/Mini-Mausers, or those rare Ruger M77 variants.

Well-made ammo in a tight AK, like my SLR-95 above, will often group nicely. That same lovingly handcrafted ammo in a sloppy AK, like a WASR, SAR-1, or Maadi will show a somewhat larger group, but not as large as cheap surplus fodder in the same "loose" AK variants. Tune the ammo to the right gun, and you can have a lot of fun.

Gewehr98, I keep meaning to ask. Who makes that stock? I've got one that looks similar but not the same, made by Choate.

Also, did you knock the pin out of the end part of the barrel and have it removed and replaced with the brake or something else?

jmm

I decided to take a long lunch today and knock the dust off the Carcano. Using Federal Power Shok 123 grain soft points I ended up with this.(100 yds.) Of course I'm willing to admit it was operator error, not the cartridge or rifle

Grimjaw, regarding the stock, it's a Butler Creek.

I didn't like the Choate version, the pistol grip felt funny to me.

As for the front sight, the pins were drilled out, the front sight sleeve and bayonet lug assembly drifted off the end of the barrel, and that Capco (not Tapco) small-diameter muzzle brake sweated (soldered) on to maintain the original barrel contour and profile. Looks very clean.

The gas system is now a ribbed gas tube with no handguard, sold by DC Engineering, found at www.rifletech.com on their website. I ground off the sling swivel on the gas block, and since I took the pictures, even ground off the rear tangent sight attachment points, drilling and tapping the rear sight base for that brass deflector's mounting points.

The stock is an older Ram-Line I found at Gander Mountain in the discount bin, it had a nice feel to it, and gave me plenty of room for glass bedding between the receiver, first inch of barrel and stock. I had wanted to paint it something nice like tan or olive, but it looks fairly business like in black. There's enough original silhouette around the receiver area to let folks know it used to be a Norinco SKS, but otherwise, it's very clean, especially with a flush-mounted 5-round detachable magazine. Even the cleaning rod hole in the front of the forend has become a home for a sling swivel stud.

I still stand by my claim that the 7.62x39mm is not particularly accurate. DMK uses an AR platform and gets groups of 2-3", would anyone firing a similar .223 Rem.consider that outstanding? Gewehr98 mentions that the 7.62x39 is the parent cartridge of the PPC series, which will routinely shoots one hole groups from good bolt guns, and yet no one here has reported getting better than 1" from this cartridge. I still believe that some cartridges are more inherently accurate than others.

45 Guy
Just curious as to why you threw a Carcano into a discussion on 7.62x39mm ammo?

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Maybe because it's chambered for that round?
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=200776

still stand by my claim that the 7.62x39mm is not particularly accurate. DMK uses an AR platform and gets groups of 2-3", would anyone firing a similar .223 Rem.consider that outstanding? Gewehr98 mentions that the 7.62x39 is the parent cartridge of the PPC series, which will routinely shoots one hole groups from good bolt guns, and yet no one here has reported getting better than 1" from this cartridge. I still believe that some cartridges are more inherently accurate than others.

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I agree and disagree. First of all, I don't believe the round compares to 223 Rem. Heck, try comparing .308 to 222 Rem which is even more inherently accurate than 223.

I believe that most of the 7.62x39 ammo on the market today is made to the same specs as military ball (even the HPs) and is equivalent in accuracy to 7.62x51 or 30-06 surplus.

The biggest problem with the round is that there are no quality made components or premium match ammo for this round manufactured commercially. There's no equivalent of the Federal .308 168gr. Gold Medal Match for example. Even if you handload it, the bullets themselves are not of the same quality as some of the best .308 rounds. There are very few 122-125gr .311 bullets(if any) that are even boattails.

I believe the round has potential, but there just isn't enough interest in improving it with better components.

I still stand by my claim that the 7.62x39mm is not particularly accurate.

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That's your call, but I disagree. In my experiences, the chambering itself is fine. Chambering 7.62x39 in an inaccurate rifle and using crappy ammo doesn't measure the cartridge - it measures the rifle and the loads used. When you put 7.62x39 in a rifle of reasonable accuracy and load it to a reasonable level of quality, it provides the expected results.

DMK uses an AR platform and gets groups of 2-3", would anyone firing a similar .223 Rem.consider that outstanding?

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I have several 7.62x39 chambered AR's that I use for most of my hunting and they all deliver solid MOA-or-better performance with a variety of handloads.



Moreover, I also have a wee bit o' experience with bone-stock AR's and M16's and I've never had one that would print better than a 2" group in any configuration equal to or approaching MilSpec form. The 'accuracy' of the AR platform has little to do with the chambering and much to do with how it's built.

yet no one here has reported getting better than 1" from this cartridge

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I just did. Better yet, go ask someone who has a CZ boltie chambered in 7.62x39 and you'll likely hear all sorts of glowing reports.

In general, I think that you're holding up an unreasonable bar and then you act surprised when it's not met. The M43 round is primarily chambered in stamped-steel semiauto rifles that are designed and constructed to fill a niche that's not compatible with tack-driving accuracy. Judging its accuracy based on how it performs in those platforms isn't reasonable. But when you chamber 7.62x39 in a rifle that is capable of reasonable accuracy, it performs quite well.

I still believe that some cartridges are more inherently accurate than others.

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That's true, but the differences are quite small in my experiences, at least inside of 300 yards. Moreover, the differences are getting smaller every day as better and more varied powders come on the market.