"It's safest to just give the robber what he wants..."

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Green Lantern

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...yeah, RIGHT! Here's just one example to throw in the face of those who say that you only INCREASE your chances of getting hurt by resisting the "bad guys."

(Apologies if it's not directly gun-related)

http://kotv.com/news/topstory/?id=127336
Robbery Suspect Sought In Hammer Attack
KOTV - 5/14/2007 9:23 PM - Updated 5/15/2007 12:11 PM

Chelsea Police are investigating a shocking attack at a Rogers County pharmacy. Two people, a pharmacist and an employee were injured Monday night after being attacked by a man who demanded drugs. The victims were beaten with a hammer; the encouraging news is they survived. News On 6 anchor Craig Day reports many people living in Chelsea are shocked.

Police say it was just before closing time when a man with a gun came into the Chelsea Family Pharmacy and demanded pain pills, including hydrocodone, which is very addictive. A pharmacist and an employee inside complied with the demands, but were forced to lie on the floor.

“They did everything he said. He could have taken the drugs and went out, but he took it one step further,” said Chelsea Police Chief Kenny Kelsey.

Chelsea Police Chief Kenny Kelsey says that's when the man hit the victim with a hammer.

The pharmacist, Chad Jones, is okay, alert and talking. The 19-year-old employee has more serious injuries, possibly a skull fracture, but is also alert and will survive.

Carla Bynum is one of the pharmacists who works at the pharmacy.

“Well it scared me at first, and I pray for them that they'll be alright,” she said.

Like Bynum, people living in the community are shocked.

“Small town community here in Chelsea and we don't have a lot of crime,” said Chelsea Mayor Norman Wooten. “This is kinda surprising to everyone in the community that something like this could happen here.”

“It puts a scare in everyone around here, I mean you never know where they're gonna be. They could hurt anybody,” said Mendy Haner, Chelsea native.

Police say the man had been told to leave the pharmacy about a month ago, and was told not to come back.

“This is kinda shocking, I mean he just got out of jail two weeks ago, and he has a history with this medication. He knew what he wanted, and that's what he went after,” Kelsey said.

Chelsea Police are looking for 31-year-old Steven Pierce of Claremore. Police say he has previous arrests for embezzlement. It’s believed he left the pharmacy in a silver late 90's model Honda Civic, or possibly a white Dodge Neon. Anyone who sees Pierce, or has information that could help in the investigation is asked to call the Chelsea Police Department at 918-789-2123, or the Rogers County Sheriff’s Office at 918-342-9700
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My first thought was, "how on earth does a group of people just STAND there while another person is getting beaten, possibly to death? Er, sometimes I forget that there are smaller drugstores than where I work. ;)

I mentioned a story that hit a lot "closer to home" in another thread where pharmacy employees were made to lie on the floor during a robbery, but that one turned out "OK," in that the perp just took the drugs and left.

I don't think you can make a "hard-and-fast" rule for something like this, but it seems that when given the "lie on the floor" command might be the time to start thinking about fighting back...???

(ESPECIALLY when it's from someone that you've actually "banned" from your pharmacy! Maybe the guys I work for are more forgiving than most, but it takes a **LOT** for things to get to that point in my experience!)

ETA - when I speak of "fighting back," it's under the assumption that all the victims are obeying the "no-guns" policy of the workplace. Not the best odds if against an armed robber, but IMO much better than lying down and waiting for a bullet (or hammer) to the skull...!!!
 
http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/news/localnews/stories/051707dnmetshooting.753a442f.html


Excerpt:
He said a young man who works at the doughnut shop came running out with a cellphone and said that a man had robbed the shop and shot Mr. Martinez.

"The next thing I knew, the cops were coming down the street and I thought somebody must have robbed the place," Mr. Guzy said.

He said the man told him that Mr. Martinez had done as the robber instructed but was shot anyway. Mr. Guzy said he watched as emergency medical workers transported Mr. Martinez to the hospital, where he died.
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In my professional medical opinion I think the attacker was deficient in the vitamin Pb. I would have given him a sufficient dose.
 
Now *this* is a prime example for my earlier question. *files away for future reference*

I guess the general consensus is don't obey ALL of the robber's demands...

Edited to add...why on earth did he attack the employees with a HAMMER when he had a gun??
 
Green Lantern said:
I don't think you can make a "hard-and-fast" rule for something like this, but it seems that when given the "lie on the floor" command might be the time to start thinking about fighting back...???

ETA - when I speak of "fighting back," it's under the assumption that all the victims are obeying the "no-guns" policy of the workplace. Not the best odds if against an armed robber, but IMO much better than lying down and waiting for a bullet (or hammer) to the skull...!!!
Click to expand...
Oana said:
I guess the general consensus is don't obey ALL of the robber's demands...
Click to expand...
From everything I've read and been taught, the odds of getting hurt skyrocket if you're: (a) moved to another, more remote location; or (b) forced to lie down, kneel, turn your back to the attacker, etc.

I've been attacked a couple of times. Once, a couple of guys (armed with a knife and pepper spray) tried to pull me into an SUV. I had already made up my mind to resist in that situation. Even though I was unarmed, I dug in my heels and fought. It worked.

Who knows what might have happened had I complied? Maybe nothing. Maybe ... ???
 
Yes, if the VCA(s) order a victim to a more secluded location, or to perform an act that puts him, or her, in a position of greater helplessness . . . it probably means something bad is imminent.

Most encounters with a mugging will conclude with the VCA(s) using force only to the extent it overwhelms and intimidates the victim into compliance with the demands. Occasionally it goes further. We can't be assured of any outcome, but developing skills to recognize when an encounter means more than your valuables will help in your decision.


The clue they had to it likely going farther than mere robbery was the fact he was known to them, and was banned from the property the prior month. The force was more than instrumental . . . it was expressive.
 
No hard and fast rules except do not leave the scene of the crime with the criminal.
 
I work part time in a local pharmacy.I've decided that they don't pay me enough to NOT give someone what they want...however...I won't be moved,made to lie down or have gun pointed at me w/out taking defensive/offensive action.The company losing money is one thing,me and my co-workers getting hurt or killed is another.Of course I'd probably get fired after the incedent.
 
The clue they had to it likely going farther than mere robbery was the fact he was known to them, and was banned from the property the prior month. The force was more than instrumental . . . it was expressive.
Click to expand...

BullfrogKen, I have read a couple posts where you and perhaps Jeff refer to different types of violence by name. Could you elaborate on this hierarchy for those of us unfamiliar with the concept? Thanks!
 
I referred to a Kleck paper in the thread about workplace safety.
RESISTING CRIME: THE EFFECTS OF VICTIM ACTION ON THE OUTCOMES OF CRIMES
JONGYEON TARK, GARY KLECK
CRIMINOLOGY VOLUME 42 NUMBER 4 2004, 861

A bit more from the study (far too long to post all of it - 50 pages - as well as copyright violation)[SP is Self Protective actions]:
Most important, these figures
show that while many crime victims are injured, they are rarely injured
after taking protective action and are almost never seriously injured after
resisting. For all 27,595 crime incidents, fewer than 2 percent involved a
victim being injured after resisting the offender, and fewer than one-half
of 1 percent involved a victim being seriously injured after resisting. Of all
crimes involving SP actions and injury, only 10 percent involved SP
followed by injury. Thus a scholar who implicitly interpreted SP-plus-
injury crimes as incidents in which SP provoked offenders into injuring the
victim would be wrong in at least 90 percent of the cases.
Once victims resist, the probability that they will suffer any further
injury drops almost to zero, regardless of type of crime or resistance. Most
offenders in personal larcenies and burglaries probably never had any
intention of hurting their victims, and thus there were no violent intentions
to thwart. Post-resistance injury is also rare in sexual assaults, robberies
and assaults. This does not mean there is no risk to victim resistance, but
the chances of resistance provoking offenders to inflict injury is low by any
reasonable standard (2.8 percent of crimes with SP) and the risk of serious
injury is close to zero (0.7 percent). Independent of victim resistance,
violent crime is by definition inherently dangerous. Even among victims
who did not resist, about 18.5 percent were injured; the rest were merely
threatened. But resistance rarely adds to this "baseline" level of danger,
given how infrequently any further injury is inflicted after resistance.

...

Thus virtually
any form of victim resistance is associated with lower rates of post-SP
injury than nonresistance, though there is no longer any clear pattern
regarding whether forceful or nonforceful actions are more effective. In
Table 7, the appearance of support for the view that crime victims should
refrain from resisting crime has essentially disappeared.
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[Emphasis added]
 
There was a string of robberies here in Modesto CA last year, and the two BGs shot, or tried to shoot each store clerk after getting the money. If I remember correctly, they killed one.

This stuff drives me mad. The LEO stance in my county is that "personal protection" is not enough to get a CCW, yet you CAN get one if you transport cash deposits. So, this means that MONEY is worth protecting more than the life of my family and I.

I know, I'm a peasant and I need to get back to work.
 
safest to give in?

About tens years ago in Dayton,Ohio i would stop at a dairy mart every wednesday morning to get my coffee,always the same nice older woman working the night shift.Stopped one morning to crime scene tape and police cars,a seventeen and a sixteen year old robbed her,made her lay on the floor,then shot her in the back of the head with a two shot derringer killing her.All i know is the U.S Army didnt train me to be a victim,they might kill me but i'll take some of the little bastards with me.
 
trfcrugby wrote:
The LEO stance in my county is that "personal protection" is not enough to get a CCW, yet you CAN get one if you transport cash deposits. So, this means that MONEY is worth protecting more than the life of my family and I.
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Well, the LEO view is the money makes a transporter of cash deposits a much more likely target than the average Joe. If Joe is at the ATM, it doesn't make much difference. Sure, maybe one is a planned crime and one is a crime of opportunity. Sure doesn't help Joe much. "Good thing I only had $500 when I got killed. Just think of how much more dead I'd be if I had $5,000!"
 
If you have never had a drug addict criminal stick a gun in your face you have no clue what you will actually do.

It is all fine and dandy to speak with bravado but let it happen to you and then come here and say what you did.

I recommend that you do not comply with a criminal if at all possible. Do not lie down and take it.
 
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I used to have college professor who swore you should give anyone what ever they want, They must need it worse than you. Total bs but next day his stereo was stolen out of his truck then he starts screaming of how police should have caught him. Ya ya lol. Anyways I have found a smile and a gun gets your message of go away I am not a sheep for your abuse works wonders but somehow some of them just need to recieve the business end of a discharging gun to learn inprove the gene pool add chlorine or lots of lead.
 
Deaf Smith said:

And if what he wants is your life?
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Then he'll just take it without asking for your money first, won't he? Your pockets are easier to search when he can roll you over without your hands getting in the way. Simple robberies usually don't elevate to murder after he has what he wants. They elevate to murder for other reasons. Just as this one appears to have.


Im283 said: I recommend that you do not comply with a criminal if at all possible. Do not lie down and take it.
Click to expand...

As long as you're willing to deal with his, "Or else . . .", you can do anything you desire. You can do anything in life you want to, as long as you're willing to pay for the consequences. Sometimes a fight is unavoidable, sometimes it can be avoided. The decision to not comply and "not lie down and take it" pretty much assures a fight will occur. If that's what you're willing to do, no matter what, then you've got to be willing to accept the possibility you might lose that fight . . . and what losing that fight means.
 
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