Good calibers and platforms for centerfire bullseye competition

Most shoot their .45 ACP wad gun in the centerfire match. There are a few out there who will shoot either a Model 52 Smith or a Clark 1911 .38 Special or similar conversion in the CF match. We have one shooter in OK that uses a .32 S&W (Walther conversion, I think).

There are advantages and disadvantages to shooting something less than a .45. Trigger pull on a CF only pistol can be anything not less than 2 and half pounds. A .45 match pistol has to be at least 3 and half pounds whether used in the CF or .45 match.

The .32 and .38 give you a much smaller hole and this can be a decided disadvantage in the 50 yard slow fire portion of the match. And the wind can be a factor with the lighter bullets.

I use a Clark .38 conversion once in a while in the CF match. Generally works very well in the TF and RF portions. Sometimes gives me fits in the SF stage.

I only know of one guy that shoots a 9mm in CF. Hard to get good target loads. I know, I know, the AMU uses the Beretta for Leg Matches, but they're shooting jacketed stuff and it's hard to find good lead bullet loads for Bullseye.

Hope this helps.

Shot a Benelli MP95E in .32S&WLong (Wadcutters) for a season. Enjoyed it a lot with its light recoil. Decided to sell it after I decided to simplify my reloading "program". I'm now down to .45acp...depending on which gun, there's 200gr LSWC; 185gr Star LHPSWC; and, 155gr LSWC Valiant. Oh, Ball ammo with Sierra 230gr (5515)...

For Bullseye, you can draw upon the experiences of shooters who came before us...a lot have tried the .38Super to .38spl WC conversion for 1911 style pistols. If shooting European sports pistols in .32s&w long like the Walters GSP, Hammerli 280 or Benelli MP90/95, remember that these were designed for shooting 25m courses...and may need some additional work after you make Master

Good luck on your search.

Where are you going to shoot and under what rules?

Gallery pistol in a league or aiming for Distinguished or what? For gallery in a league a .32 S&W Long will be much cheaper to feed in today's market and also arguably a weaker choice on an outdoor 50 yard line. A 952 long slide is an odd-ball but perfectly acceptable choice for center fire that might be cheaper to feed than a .45 though harder to find match ammunition for.

A softball gun and a Marvel Conversion make a fine combination for NRA. I might look at a Les Baer long slide for a softball gun with reasonable delivery.

For a leg match I'd go with a well smithed custom - Clark Custom may have the best delivery at a fair price though many hard holders prefer some of the more or less one man - nothing wrong with Marianne Carniak for a one woman - shop.

It's been a few years since I competed in NRA BE but my choice for a centerfire gun was Clark .38 Special conversion by Jim Clark Sr. Gun was fully reliable but picky regarding best accuracy.

Good shooting and be safe.
LB

I think you're limiting yourself by only shooting one part of the 2700 BE match. It pays in the long run to shoot all three guns, .22, CF and .45 and eventually a hardball .45 in EIC matches.

If you can master the .22, you can transition to the others more easily. I've noticed a lot of shooters start out with a red dot, rather than learning sight alignment with iron sights first. My own opinion (and I know I'm in a minority) is that a shooter (especially in Bullseye) should learn with iron sights first and only transition to a red dot once they get the basics down and are shooting high Sharpshooter or low Expert scores. It helps especially when shooting the EIC match.

If you're serious about only shooting the CF match, your best bet is a .38 Special; either a Clark or similar converison or a Smith 52. I don't think you'll find the 9mm or 10mm adequate for what you want to do.

Thank you all very much for your replies.

I'll be competing in regional NRA events with aspirations of camp perry to achieving grand master

I don't want to get into multiple pistols, so I figure to make the best I can of one platform and just compete in the CF leg. I'm concerned mostly about the 50 slow fire and my current abilities.. and think (uh-oh) I need something
a little less pushy than the .45. Maybe 10mm handloads? (Better BC than 185gr 45s). Either way, that limits me to the 1911.. well, I guess .38s limit me to the 1911 as well..
which leaves the Smith 952 in basically the same diameter.
or euroguns in the smaller diameter .32 cals ..

Am I missing anything?

Click to expand...

Hi there, fellow Conventional Pistol shooter!

There are a few things that you need to know prior to competing.

First of all, you need at least TWO guns for competition.

Your Conventional Pistol matches (2700's) are actually three aggregate matches, which are divided into four stages. More on that later.

You MUST shoot a .22. You MUST shoot a .45 ACP. You CAN get a different caliber for the centerfire stage if you wish; most people use their .45's for centerfire and the .45 match.

If you plan on earning your Distinguished medal, you MUST shoot a gun that meets the criteria for The Service Pistol. The guidelines are strict, and can be found under Section 3 of the NRA Pistol Rules. The general idea is that your handgun MUST be either the Pistol, Caliber .45, M1911A1, or the Pistol, Caliber 9x19, M9. And, let me tell you, there is NO give on the published rules--as an example, at Camp Perry this year, I had to change my GRIP PANELS--because they were very slightly oversized!!

As for the wadcutter gun, most folks shoot a highly accurized 1911, specifically tuned for loads like the 200 grain LSWC (HG 68 design), moving at about 800 fps. And make no mistake, you NEED an accurate gun to be competitive.

Consider this: your gun MUST be able of shooting a maximum of a 3" group at 50 YARDS. This is the diameter of the 10 and X ring.

Another caveat--there are a lot of good honest pistolsmiths out there--but a gunsmith that will build bullseye guns is a rarity even among pistolsmiths.

As for preparation, you can start by setting up a bullseye target at 10 yards. I use the B-6 and B-8 target repair centers for practice. Now, practice shooting ONE HANDED ONLY at that distance. You only use one hand in Bullseye shooting, which can have nothing on the hand or wrist. Practice at that distance for a while; when you can shoot consistently within the 10 ring, move the target back in 5 yard increments.

Good luck, and good shooting! You have entered the world of what I believe is the most demanding shooting sport.

I know that clean scores are shot regularly in CAS, IDPA, IPSC, and USPSA shooting. There are shotgunners that can and do break 25 straight.

But since its inception into organized competition, no one--repeat, NO one--has ever shot a clean score in a Bullseye match.

One of the other posters was correct. There are very few good Bullseye gunsmiths. Back in the day I just shot .45 for both CF guns. When I made one of the Army teams I had to shoot "double ball" for the first year. I was never that good at Bullseye. Best I ever shot was a 2626. My average was in the 2610-2615 range.
Unless things have changed there is no minimum velocity required. I would just shoot a .45. I have some very accurate 200 gr SWC loads that only go 650 fps. You don't get much softer than that. The big holes help.
Most guns are more than accurate enough for IDPA and USPSA. I am not sure what is meant by the statement that clean scores are shot regularly in IDPA and USPSA. That simply is not true. If you shoot a clean score in IDPA, = no points down, then you are shooting too slowly to win anything. This is especially true in USPSA.
Guess my only claim to fame during my Bullseye career was I saw Herschel Anderson shoot a 2680 at the range in Nashville,Tn. That score still stands. I have the match bulletin stashed away somewhere.

Bullseye...

and if you haven't already read this:

http://www.bullseyepistol.com/

enjoy.

As for a .45, several custom guns wil do the job, or the best of the current factory offerings are:

http://www.rockriverarms.com/item-detail.cfm?ID=PS2100&storeid=1&image=pbew.gif

and

http://www.lesbaer.com/comp.html

best of luck.

-LeadPumper

You MUST shoot a .22. You MUST shoot a .45 ACP. You CAN get a different caliber for the centerfire stage if you wish; most people use their .45's for centerfire and the .45 match.

Click to expand...

Not to be picky, but the rules only state that the .45 pistol must be just that, a .45 caliber. No where does it say it must be a .45 ACP. I shot a match a while back and one of the guys was shooting a .45 Long Colt Model 25 in the .45 match. Perfectly legal under the rules.

Also, it is also perfectly legal just to shoot one aggregate match, be it the .22, CF or .45 match. You do not need to shoot the entire 2700, but again, it does limit your experience to just shoot the one match.

And, the final say in what is a Service pistol depends on what match you're shooting. If it's a Pistol EIC match, use the CMP rules. If it's an NRA Service Pistol match, use their rules. Yes, I know they're the "same", but then they are not. The CMP has a chart in their rules which details what is and what is not allowed in the configuration of the service pistol. This year they deleted the requirement on what grip screws can or can't be used. Now anyting is legal whereas before, they had to be std slotted grips screws and not those that take an allen wrench.

Not to be smart but once you shoot the 52 you'll know why. I've been thinking I need to get back into full sized BE. I shoot indoors with a 41 during the winter months.

I've been wanting to try a 952 out--but I already have a 52-2 that I lucked on to--99%, with box, papers and extra mag, for only $600.00! It is a SWEET shooter!

Another 45 question.

Okay, I have a ruger 22/45 that I am doing a lot of practicing with, and I would like to get a 45 that I can use to start shooting bullseye. Aside from the Rock River and Les Baer mentioned above, what is a good (and preferably less expensive) 45 to start with?
Thanks,
D
p.s. Although I would like my 45 to be 1911 style, I'm not dead set on one if there is a more reasonably priced alternative.

The type or brand of .45 really doesn't matter. What DOES matter is the accuracy that the gun can deliver.

You need a gun that will put EVERY bullet, EVERY time, into a 3" circle at 50 yards.

Out of the box, there are darned few guns that will fit that category. I have heard very nice things about the Sig GSR, and some of the Smith and Wesson .45's. Other than those two, your best bet is probably going to be a Rock River Arms (NOT Rock Island, btw) or perhaps a Les Baer.

For this and a wealth of other Bullseye information, check out:

www.bullseyepistol.com

wolfe28

I have an out-of-the box Series 70 Gold Cup that works just fine, but today they're running almost as much as a custom gun if you can find one.

Besides Les Baer,etc. there are pistolsmiths out there who can accurize a std .45 1911 for Bullesye. Buddy Chapman in Lone Oak is one that does a lot of work here in DFW area. He built my hardball gun and did an excellent job. I started with a plain jane HS 1911A1 and went from there. The total bill for the gun and work was around $900.

We have one shooter who uses his hardball gun as a wadcutter gun in the CF and .45 match and it must work since he's consistently breaking 840 in both events and just got his Distinguished in less than two seasons.

get a 1911. Preferable a series 70 gold cup NM or a Les baer DCM. There are a few others but that is what I would use. And intend to get one of the above. Now if you intend to shoot bullseye I really suggest a 1911. if you shoot a military match you will have to use that or an M9. The berreta is nice but its significantly more expensive to match condition than it is to build a 1911.

There are those in the Bullseye community that will tell you to focus on shooting the .22lr until you're consistently shooting about 240/300 and up before getting into CF or 45.

Another great source for bullseye accurate wad guns is the "Bullseye-L"(ist). This is a mailing list that uses a listserver, you need to register at bullseye-l.com to participate. You can read the archives at http://groups.google.com/group/Bullseye-L-Archive ...anyway, wait for "for sale" ads or place a "want to buy" for a wad gun. Sometimes you'll be surprised at what responses you get.

Depending on age and condition, used wad guns will show up from around $700 and go up (way up). I just picked up a Colt pre-70 series accurized by Alton Dinan for $610 delivered...still amazingly tight and accurate! A common route is to buy a Springfield Armory Mil-Spec and send that to a bullseye gunsmith. There are a few on the list that will turn your pistol into a 2.5"/50-yd accurate pistol for under $1000 (Kart NM barrel/bushing; 3.5lb trigger; slide mounted scope mount; and, 1" ultradot).

Good luck.

Cdrt.. We Are The Minority!

"I've noticed a lot of shooters start out with a red dot, rather than learning sight alignment with iron sights first. My own opinion (and I know I'm in a minority) is that a shooter (especially in Bullseye) should learn with iron sights first and only transition to a red dot once they get the basics down and are shooting high Sharpshooter or low Expert scores."

I qualified Expert with open sights in Gallery rimfire, and have now moved to a dot sight on my customized Ruger. I'm very proud of being able to shoot with iron sights. My 1911's will always be open sighted. Some day, I'll compete with 1911.

-Steve

Yep, you'll need to seat the wadcutter so it is flush with the case mouth. I use Hornady 148 HBWC, Zero's HBWC and Magnus 148s in my Clark and they all work just fine. The slide on my Clark is a little heavier than the Smith 52, so I use 3.0 grains of Bullseye. You could probably do okay with the old std load of 2.7 grains of BE and any good HBWC bullet.

Also, after seating the bullet, make sure you use a gentle roll crimp, to close the case slightly over the seated wadcutter bullet.

If you're interested in a dot sight option, check out BME mounts; there are a couple of no-gunsmithing sight options that will not require modification of your pistol.

I would also consider a set of Fung grips for your pistol, too--this will help to obtain a consistent grip so you can concentrate on your shooting.