The gunshow loophole?

In Washington, a private party sale does not require a BC, only a FFL dealer, so yes there in lies the "loophole" if it is a private party seller at a Gunshow, you can purchase the pistol, and walk right out with no BC or anything. I bought a .44 a couple of years ago that way. I am fairly careful about who I sell a pistol too, as in if I don't know them, and it is FTF I ask to see a CPL. You will find that most "legal" firearm owners would not knowingly sell firearms to a known criminal. However I guess it is just a judgement call, I don't know about your area, but there are fewer and fewer "private party" sellers at the gunshows all the time, it is mostly dealers anymore.

Toby

I think wikipedia defines what they are talking about pretty well:

The "Gun show loophole" is a neologism coined to describe the legal sale of firearms between private individuals at gun shows. United States federal law requires persons engaged in interstate firearm commerce to hold a Federal Firearms License and to perform certain checks prior to transferring a firearm, but these laws have never applied to individual-to-individual sales of personal firearms, with both buyer and seller being residents of the same state. When these sales take place at a gun show, some perceive a "loophole" in the National Instant Criminal Background Check System (NICS).

Although a point of concern, only 2% of firearms used historically in the commission of crimes were obtained at gun shows.[2] Of firearms used in crimes, 98% were obtained from other sources having no connection with a gun show, the most common of which (35%) are family or friends.[3] Licensed gun dealers that sell at gun shows must, by federal law, strictly adhere to background checks through the National Instant Criminal Background Check System. Additionally, some states and parts of states have laws requiring that a purchaser observe a waiting period before taking possession of a firearm from even private sellers, unless a CCW license is held by the buyer. These waiting periods can range from 3 to 10 days depending on the state where the firearm is purchased. These waiting periods may not apply to firearms that fall under the "curio & relic" laws (firearms that are over 50 years old), depending on jurisdiction.

Another concern sometimes voiced is the possibility that a gun dealer, who would otherwise be required to be licensed, could pose as a private seller to circumvent federal law requiring dealer licensing and mandating background checks of firearms purchasers at a gun show. However, the criteria that would differentiate a person "in the business of firearms dealing" from a "private seller" has not been clearly defined under U.S. law. As well, such cases have yet to be tested in U.S. courts.

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From here.

As they alluded to, at gun shows you have private individuals buying tables and bringing lots of guns to sell. These folks aren't bound to do the same background check as commercial dealers. This gives off the impression that one can buy a gun without a federal background check at a gun show, although it really does depend on who you buy it from.

When you get into pistols things get hairy-er. Like I know you can buy a rifle out of state provided that its legal in your home state and carry it over state lines but you need a FFL transfer for pistols.

So its probably something like that.

How is this not a loophole?

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Because they always parade it out as the "gun show loophole" and falsely represent the realities of the law.

If they termed it the "private sale loophole" and explained it honestly folks would understand that the Brady Campaign doesn't want them to be able to sell their extra shotgun to their brother in law without going through an FFL. This might strike some as a bit over the top.

It works better if they can only relate it to gun show: Only the extreme gun owners go there. Everybody else just buys a rifle or two from the regular shop.

The term loophole implies that someone is actively seeking to circumvent a regulation--if private sales between non-licensees is not unlawful, no loophole exists in fact--as no regulation is being circumvented or broken.

The flavor of the term leads the un-knowing to believe that gun shows are some sort of un-regulated free-for-all weapons bizzare where laws don't apply. But then again, the term has been propagated by the same folks who have trotted about such pointless puff words as 'Saturday Night Special', 'Military-Grade', 'Sniper Rifle' and 'Assault Weapon'. It's a ham-handed and tired bit of propaganda.

In RI

I bought a handgun from a guy here in RI and we went through a dealer, which if i'm not mistaken is state law. Are there states that do not have this law?

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That is the law. All transfers have to go through a FFL, even private ones. I know, I used to live there.

Some states do allow person to person handshake type deals.

PS, where do you shop in RI? D&L? Bull's Eye?

If I remember correctly

Which? And are these deals the "loophole" the antis want closed?

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Most of the southern/ western states but I am 99% that PA and FL do.

Sorry, I'm not 100% on that because none of the states that I lived in while old enough to buy a firearm allowed this (RI, NJ, NY)

Both. But lately just Bullseye

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How's Paul doing?

The folks in favor of closing the loophole don't say they are trying to restrict sales. What they claim is that they want to crack down on what they consider unlicensed dealers, so-called private sellers who are making a living selling guns as gun shows as a private dealers moving a large number of guns without a background check.

The idea is that by forcing background checks on all gun show sales, you put a damper on the large number of guns changing hands without background checks at these shows since you more or less take away one of the venues for such transactions.

The "gun show loophole" they are referring to is "private collectors" who are selling large number of guns at these events with no background checks. They are virtually indistinguishable from FFL dealers, except that they are, in theory, not running a business. That is what they are talking about with the loophole. The whole idea is that these sellers appear to skirting the law by representing themselves as private individuals when they are moving substantial amounts of guns.

In regards to your Arizona question, that transaction would be legal in about 30 states.

Well, I'm awful cynical of the Brady Group's actions, so saying that they'd like to stop "any sale anywhere period" is about where they'd like to end up.

True, what they want to do, right now, is stop citizens from selling arms to each other. Since that likely wouldn't play too well with the public they present the argument like it happens only at gun shows and try and convince people that such legislation is a good idea.

Problem with stopping private sales at gun shows is: How do you enforce that? What happens if I've got my M1917 slug over my shoulder and meet a guy that has no cash on him but still wants to buy it? Are the new "gun show laws" in effect even if we transfer it in the parking lot after he gets some cash out of his car? How about if we meet at his house later that day? A week later? Two weeks? What if I never bring the firearms to the sale, but just posters? Is that still a "gun show" sale?

So, you end up having to outlaw all private sales to achieve that goal.

Once that's enacted in all 50 states (it would be a stretch for the feds to legally do it in one fell swoop) now the Brady's can turn their attention entirely to the national level. Start choking down the types of weapons that can be sold via FFLs and eventually you'll choke everything out of existence.

Sure, your rifle may be "grandfathered" in, but that won't do us much good a generation or two from now when you go to hand down your collection to the children. Can't transfer them without an FFL doing the paperwork, and if that classification of weapon is a no-no at the federal level, well, shucks!

Given enough time we'll be back to flintlocks.

From USA Today

Opposing view: There is no loophole
Critics use gun shows to scare you into accepting more limits.

By Philip Van Cleave

Let's be clear about gun shows: There is nothing that can be done at a gun show that cannot be done legally outside of a gun show.

The terms "gun show loophole" and "unlicensed gun dealer" are fabricated to mislead the public into thinking that gun shows permit gun sales that would be forbidden anywhere else. The intent of this scheme is to villainize gun shows, making the public more receptive to additional restrictions.

This is just the first step in a "private gun-sale registration" scheme.

Gun banners know they must take small steps, placing more and more hurdles to gun ownership so that fewer law abiding citizens will go to the trouble of purchasing a firearm.

None of the hurdles would affect criminals. According to a 2001 U.S. Department of Justice report, only 0.7% of criminals got their guns from shows.

A gun purchased from a dealer at a gun show requires the same background check as a gun purchased at the dealer's store. No loophole.

In most states, a gun purchased from a person's private collection requires no background check, whether purchased at a gun show or at someone's home. Again, no loophole.

A gun is like any other private property: It's yours to sell whenever you wish.

Of course, gun banners would call you an "unlicensed gun dealer."

Hogwash. Does selling your personal car make you an "unlicensed car dealer?"

Gun banners want to force dealers to do background checks on private sales. That would put a heavy burden on dealers who must keep the paperwork for decades and delay their own sales while running those checks. That would drive up the cost of buying a gun, creating another hurdle for the prospective law abiding purchaser.

Of course, closing the imaginary "gun show loophole" is only the first step. Gun banners will then say that since private sales are not allowed at gun shows, the "home gun-sale loophole" must be closed.

Ultimately, complete gun registration is the goal. Where there is registration, there is confiscation, as gun owners in California, Illinois, New York and Washington, D.C., learned when authorities confiscated guns that were banned after the owner had bought and registered them.

Philip Van Cleave is president of the Virginia Citizens Defense
League (www.vcdl.org), a gun rights group.

**************************************************
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VA-ALERT is a project of the Virginia Citizens Defense League, Inc. (VCDL).
VCDL is an all-volunteer, non-partisan grassroots organization dedicated to
defending the human rights of all Virginians. The membership considers the
Right to Keep and Bear Arms to be an essential human right.

VCDL web page: http://www.vcdl.org

What they claim is that they want to crack down on what they consider unlicensed dealers, so-called private sellers who are making a living selling guns as gun shows as a private dealers moving a large number of guns without a background check.

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I'd just like to point out that is another one of the falsehoods they like to spread around when talking about the issue.

There are already laws against dealing in firearms without a license.

As far as I can tell, all ffl dealers at the shows must run a BC. Unlicensed dealers do not.

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There is no such thing as an "unlicensed dealer," at least not legally. If you are a "dealer" (i.e., you buy and sell guns as a business, even a casual business), you must be a licensed FFL. If you are selling off your own collection, either all at once or just a very occasional sale, you do not need to be licensed (at least in free states) and are not a "dealer."

The ATF is at virtually every gun show. If they see someone doing a lot of buying and selling as an individual, you can bet they will be all over any opportunity to charge someone with engaging in the business of "dealing in" firearms without a federal firearms license (FFL).

Like I know you can buy a rifle out of state provided that its legal in your home state and carry it over state lines but you need a FFL transfer for pistols.

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:banghead: Not true. An FFL can deliver a long gun to a resident of another state if there is no state law prohibiting such a transfer. An individual cannot make an interstate transfer of any firearm other than through an FFL. This is a common misunderstanding.

So in essence there is a loophole. This is the loophole. Unlicensed collectors selling off all or part of their collections and don't have to run a BC.

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Except that the antis claim this is a problem peculiar to "gun shows" and want them treated differently from selling off a collection out of their basement.

I'm in favor of closing the Gunshow loop hole too. Since there is so much other stuff sold at these shows anymore lets start calling them Junk shows and flea markets. That would thoroughly confuse the anti's

Here's an example. Let's say Correia and I both go to the Crossroads of the West gun show. He runs a store and has an FFL. I don't. We both take 10 ARs there to sell. We both get tables next to each other.

Joe Schmoe walks up to Correia and says, "I'd like one of those ARs." and whips out $700 in cash. Correia says, "Ok, will be $743.75 with tax and I'll need to see some ID and have you fill out this form 4473 and then we'll call in your background check and you'll be good to go." If Joe is a prohibited person, Correia is going to find out and not complete the sale.

I, on the other hand, am under no obligation to exercise the same care. Joe Schoe walks up to me and says, "I'll give you $700 cash for that AR." I can say, "Deal!" and that is that. Now, while it may be in my best interest to be more cautious, I don't have to be.

This is what folks are upset about. Now, as to what Gigabuist and Henry B. are getting at, that's the trick. If I show up to ever gun show with 10 brand new ARs to sell, someone is going to get wise and bust me for dealing in with no FFL. However, the people who want to close the loophole are certain that there are lots of the "unlicensed dealers at shows who are getting away with it. They spout numbers like 50% of vendors at gun shows don't have an FFL.

Here's an ATF report from where they get that idea.
http://www.atf.gov/pub/treas_pub/gun_show.pdf

It says, "Both FFLs and nonlicensees sell firearms at these shows. FFLs make up 50 to 75 percent of the vendors at most gun shows."

If you read that, it's obvious that 25-50% of vendors are nonlicensees, right? Now read it again in context:

"Both FFLs and nonlicensees sell firearms at these shows. FFLs make up 50 to 75 percent of the vendors at most gun shows. The majority of vendors who attend shows sell firearms and associated accessories and other paraphernalia. Examples of accessories and paraphernalia include holsters, tactical gear, knives, ammunition, clothing, food, military artifacts, books, and other literature. Some of the vendors offer accessories and
paraphernalia only and do not sell firearms."

So, clothing,food and other stuff are all now associated paraphernalia when it comes to guns. Therefore, in that 25-50% you have the clothing dealers, knife dealers, the book dealers, the freak selling Nazi medals, the jerky tables, the bread tables, the woman selling dolls, the guy selling wooden bears carved with a chainsaw, the safe dealers, the prepaid legal guys, and the private sellers. Not so ominous now, eh?

Nothing to be confused about. I think your main source of confusion is that RI requires an FFL to be involved in a private sale and that colors your thinking.

Most states (like mine) do not.

Does anyone have some simple talking points?

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-Same rules already apply whether at a gun show, a gun shop, or Bubba's basement.
-If you are a dealer (FFL), you must run a background check.
-If you are an individual, you don't.
-If you are buying and selling firearms as a business and don't have a license (FFL), your are already violating a federal law. It matters not whether it is at a gun show, a gun shop, or Bubba's basement.

Ok, but, you could show up with ONE AR and sell it to whoever and the whoever could be a felon.

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Correct, but that could also happen with a newspaper ad, messageboard, etc. That part has nothing to do with gun shows. That's what Henry's point is that there is no need for special provisions for gun shows as they are already covered by existing laws. Also, private transactions, be it gun shows or other venues are not a major source of firearms possessed by felons.