Cop Killer Bullets...

For some reason, unknown to me, there are quite a few people who believe that hollow-points are more sinister than ball ammunition.

In the tests I have seen, it's always the smaller, faster, more pointed, non-expanding bullets that penetrate vests. Anything large, slow, and/or designed to expand upon impact seems to be defeated by standard armor.

You do understand Reno 911 falls under the genre of comedy...right?
I have never heard hollow points referred to as "cop killers".

The original 'cop killer bullet' that started the controversy, was the KTW round, a brass bullet with a teflon coating to protect the rifling. It should be noted that while this round would penetrate a typical ballistic vest of the time, it was sold to law enforcement only, and no round of KTW was ever found in a gun seized from a criminal.

But it made for great copy on the news.

more info here: http://www.guncite.com/gun_control_gcgvcopk.html

More like the "killer cop" bullet...

Yes, hollow points are even less effective against Kevlar vests than FMJ rounds. The round usually referred to as "Cop Killers" is the KTW, which is simply a brass or lead cored bullet with a teflon coating. It was labeled "Cop Killer" by the media, although it is not much more effective at piercing body armor than a normal FMJ round, and in fact has never been used to kill a police officer.

My take is a bit different:

I have shot a few old vests from time to time, the HP's do seem to penetrate better.

I think it is because the HP's I have hanging around are usually Cor-Bon or similar, the factory ball ammo is usually S&B or UMC. A more drastic comparison in quality would be hard to find, the HP's are high velocity, while the ball ammo is just range ammo.

So yes, in my imperfect real world tests, HP's penetrated Kevlar better. It has nothing to do with projectile design, it was the amount of powder pushing a lighter bullet through faster and harder.

My uneducated observation.

Cop killer bullet is a luxate term simular to Assault rifle. It is a meaningless babble having nothing to do with proper definition .

It has been used to discrible bullets that will penitrate body armor, it has been used to discribe bullets that fragment rather than penitrate. Guess what many LEO's use for bullet type ?

But people watch it and when they broadcast faulty gun info, the fence sitters and uninformed will think that the gun talk is true.

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Yeah, just like they'll think that all bike cops like to wear tight shorts and make ambiguously gay comments.

i think if you are watching reno 911 then you probably know that it is a comedic show and that most of what is put out is meant to be taken very lightly.

Projectile design makes a huge difference. I has some THV 357 rounds that we fired at an old second chance vest and they went sailing right through.

Our own Tony Williams has a nice write-up on THV

http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk/THV.htm

BTW, if you shoot a 22 LR at a kevlar vest, it will usually penetrate a few layers which most handgun rounds won't make it through the first layer. Almost any rfile bullet will zip right through a typical concealment vest.

Because "cop killer" things are easier to ban. Just wait until they figure out how to ban "cop killer" cheeseburgers.

Oh my. Now I'm concerned that law enforcement officers who use hollowpoint ammunition are actually gunning for each other. What a mess our world has become when the cops are turning into cop killers by employing such ammunition. We need to put a stop to that immediately, don't you think? Let's leave hollowpoints to the criminals.

I remember when the Black Talons where also labeled "cop killers." In fact, they were nothing more than a casualty of outstanding marketing. The talons were designed, not to increase penetration, but to better stabilize the bullet as it traveled through the air, thus increasing its accuracy. However, a rumor got started that the talons acted as a "buzz saw" as the bullet spun which caused the bullet to saw through its target. It also didn't help that the bullets on these rounds were painted black, again part of their marketing. This allowed these bullets to also be grouped together with teflon coated 'cop killers" that came before them.

BTW, black talon ammunition is still available. They just changed the name and the coating. Compare Black Talon to Ranger TSX.

The hype in the media over this round was ridiculous. Some claimed the name 'Black Talon' suggested that it was made to shoot black people.

Marketing tip

If you create the ultimate defense round, call it something mundane like 'FRA' not 'Flesh Ripper Ammunition'. My personal favorite is Glaser Safety Slugs. You are so socially conscious that you carry special 'safety ammunition'.

i think if you are watching reno 911 then you probably know that it is a comedic show and that most of what is put out is meant to be taken very lightly.

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Just because it is comedy, does not mean the producers are not anti-gun.
Before bulletproof vests became common patrol wear, there was much
antigun rhetoric directed at hollowpoint bullets. "Shaped like the engine nacelles on a B-47." "The bullets don't explode, you do."

Since this was said on Reno 911, it would probably do more good to RKBA than harm. Although the COPS episode would continue to spread lies/propaganda. The unfortunate truth is a lot of police officers think these lies are true, and are simply misinformed.

baa-baa...they must keep the sheep scared and relying on the guard dogs.

While visiting my in-laws in Ukraine last spring my brother-in-law showed me his stash of black-tipped 7.62x25mm AP. They are illegal in Ukraine, but he is a fomer LEO.

"assault weapon" - firearm that the person talking/writing wants to ban

"cop killer" - ammo that the person talking/writing wants to ban

These terms have nothing to do with reality.

BTW, black talon ammunition is still available. They just changed the name and the coating. Compare Black Talon to Ranger TSX.

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LOL... it is actually Ranger SXT. But you correct, they are basically the same as the black talons and marketed "for law enforcement only" but are readily available a number or places and are not 'legally' restricted. Again, clever marketing. Mark something "LEO only" and more people want it

The SXT variation was originally said to not have the sharp jacket edges that supposedly risked doctors getting cut and exposed to disease while extracting bullets from wounded crooks. In the new American Handgunner, Massad Ayoob describes the new issue with the cutting action restored.

hollow points start to expand on impact and with layers of kevlar, wouldn't hollow points actually work less on penetration of bullet proof vests

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Yes. Penetration is determined by the stress on a certain area. Once the stress exceeds the limit it can handle (ultimate tensile strength), it will break. Then, and only then, can something continue through it.

The larger the contact area (assuming the same force), the less the chance of penetration. FMJs will penetrate better than hollow points.

To educate about the myths concerning punching holes in vests:
HPs will NOT give any extra penetration to anything.
Teflon coating will NOT give any extra penetration to anything.

To #2

lol

Hollywood physics and the MSM bias does produce some funny combinations.

1. Anything that goes boom = assault rifle
2. Anything that comes out of the front of a barrel = cop killer round

It's either to small, to large, to much plastic, to much metal, to loud, to quite....... You can't win. Bottom line, some don't care for guns, and anything that fits into their argument is used, even if they contradict themselves. So tomorrow they will argue that some rifle range needs shut down because of the noise, the day after that they will say that silencers/mufflers should not be legal. One day they will say a gun is too small, the next day they will try to ban a large caliber rifle like a 50cal with the argument that no one needs this and that should be reserved to the military. They will argue that we shouldn't fire lead because of the environment…….

The underlying goal is to restrict your Constitutional rights which can't be outright easily done. So you kill this right through a million little bureaucratic paper cuts with laws that require safety locks, special storage of ammunition by stores, licensing, forms........ God help you if a "t" is not crossed or the "i" is not dotted on a form. What do you think this nonsense is really about?

A 22LR can be a “cop killer.” It's a game where you win an argument by associating a certain mood or feeling on a topic through giving it a certain name. For example, those against the newer immigration bill called it the "amnesty bill." The term "cop killer" is a game of negative connotation.

Ask whoever uses the term “cop killer” to give you the meaning of what that means. You’d be amazed, the conversation usually ends right there. It’s a meaningless term used by liberals who want to sound smart.