Federal Air Marshall's Ammo Debate

[Shaughn Leayme]

If one has to fire a round in the flight deck of an airplane and misses it won't really matter if it is a frangible or not the bullet has a very good chance of going on its merry way and hitting something other than intended, since the reason for firing would mean the flight deck door has been breached and you will be firing into the passenger compartment, given that the intruder(s) is coming thru the door.

Frangibles can also cause functioning problems in some pistols and with the high cost, many people donot do a reliability test (200 - 500 rounds) and are basically going on the results of a magazine or two, not something to instill confidence, is it?

With all the electronic/digital displays showing up in modern aircraft, versus the old style guages, it really doesn't matter what type of bullet hits the instrument panel, you are going to lose screens and IIRC some of those have double duties.

If the screening/security on the ground is modeled along the lines that the Israeli's use, then this would be a somewhat moot discussion, until that time.....

 

[aut2no]

This is an excellent example of why you should not casually accept anything you see in print

Excellent point. However, in the first few stories, there was corroboration by other passengers of the events taking place on the plane. I give her credit for going with the story and following up, however it appears she has hit a dead end for now on the big picture story and it is a stretch for her to be dealing with concerns of "collateral damage" over FAM ammo choices.

That's far from the first articles rasing questions over bizzare in flight behavior of young Syrians with expired visas. Behavior like congregating around the lavatory, handing off a package to each upon entering, one coming back to seat with blue chemical on hand...upon final descent (w/ seatbelt fastened sign on), several of them going up from coach to first class lavatory.


Looks like she's at a dead end.

 

[aut2no]

This is the "expert" she just linked to

http://www.allexperts.com/answerv.asp?QuestionID=3732042

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Subject .357 SIG Over Penetration
Question With all the research I have recently completed on the Speer Gold
Dot .357 SIG round, and its reputation for being able to
successfully and continuously penetrate barriers such as
windshields and metal car doors, do you feel this is the most
appropriate and safe ammunition for the US Federal Air
Marshals to be carrying on airplanes?
Answer In my humble opinion, the .357 SIG has very few self-defense or law enforcement applications. The problem with the 9mm's ineffectiveness (depending on ammunition used and whom you speak with)boils down, often, to its overpenetration, this due to relatively small diameter and rapid velocity. To then take a 9mm projectile and drive it faster (as the h.357 SIG does) does not make a lot of sense (at least there should have been a clear question that the development of the round was seeking to answer). A frequent problem with 9mm ammuntion is collateral damage due to overpenetration. The only reason it is not as prevalent with the .357 SIG is that the cartridge is not as common as the 9mm.

Of the .357 SIG ammuntion available, the Speer Gold Dot is among the hotter offerings, thereby increasing the risk of overpenetration and collateral damage should the projectile fail to expand and lodge in fleshy medium.

Asked for my opinion, my recommendation for the USFAM program would be the .40 S&W loaded with either MagSafe or Glaser Safety Slugs.

Stay safe!

____________________________________

"In my humble opinion, the .357 SIG has very few self-defense or law enforcement applications"

 

[Warbow]

There sure are a lot of "experts" out there.

 

[22rimfire]

entropy - your friend was wrongly informed!

FFDO's do have very restrictive policies. Specially about firearms and ammunition.

I encourage him to re read the Federal Flight Deck Officer (FFDO) Standard Operating Procedures (SOP). The FFDO SOP is contained in the Aircraft Operator Standard Security Program (AOSSP) which is the program followed by all domestic aircraft operators within the United States.

The FFDO SOP is identified as Appendix XXIV within the AOSSP.

While I will not post the policy or parts of it here. Your friend should have no problem getting a copy as an FFDO.

The correct answer is FFDO's may not carry (per POLICY) whatever ammo they want. Of course your friend *may* choose to do whatever he pleases. He just needs to know that he is not IAW policies and directives if he carries unauthorized ammunition in his issue (duty) gun


M

 

[AZLibertarian]

entropy

What 22rimfire said. Trust me.

I'm wondering if you've ever had any LEO come in and ask what ammunition he should carry while on duty. This seems to me to be a question from an amateur or poseur. A FFDO--like every other LEO--knows what he can and cannot run through his duty gun. Carrying an unapproved ammunition brings serious consequences.

 

[saltydog452]

Time magazine.

Lets see, a Time magazine writer presented 'facts' that weren't exactly true..

Why would that surprise anyone?

salty.

 

[Zone Five]

entropy - your friend was wrongly informed!

...because entropy's friend is obviously not an FFDO.

 

[BluesBear]

Just playing the Devil's Advocate here.

entropy said;
an NWA pilot was in the shop the other day and wanted a recommendation on which ammo to carry in the cockpit.

Perhaps the pilot mentioned was asking for an opinion of the "best" ammo to carry.

It's not as if the Pilot walked in and said, [voice=SlimPickens]"Hot Dang boys I can now carry me a gun when I'm flyin'. Gimme a box of your best bullets."[/voice]

As we all should know by now, issued/authorized ammunition may not always be what is best for the sutuation. Especially when the Government is involved in deciding/issueing.

 

[22rimfire]

entropy and ALCON,

I can't believe I took the time to look up the exact place where in the FFDO SOP the issue of ammunition comes up.

The specific place to look is "Part IX (b)" of the SOP. I will not post the verbiage here as that would be against the SOP disclosure protocols.

Also anyone who may believe that FFDO's are LEO's - they are NOT. They do have restrictive policies like LEO's but do not have arrest powers a key (they key element IMHO) element fo being a LEO.

M.

BTW - the part of .357 SIG ammo being 50% faster than "regular" ammo is too funny.

 

[entropy]

Well, I wouldn't exactly call him a friend, he is a customer at the gun shop. I was upstairs on some errand, and this guy was asking about ammo for carry as he said he was an NWA pilot. We figured he would know any restrictions. Sorry for any confusion, any thanks for the info, it will come in handy.
To explain the 'upstairs on an errand'; I am a gunsmith, and the shop is in the dungeon, er, basement.

 

[Brasso]

Even a 1ft wide hole in an aircraft won't bring it down. Decompress yes, but that only crashes airplanes in the movies.

As far as a 357sig overpenatrating, it's a matter of bullet construction, just like every other caliber out there.