.30 Carbine

"...also to reload..." It's a piece of cake to reload. The problem is the lack of suitable bullet weights and limited velocities. You get a choice of 110 grain FMJ's, HP's, SP's and now a V-max. 125's and 130 can go into it, but you're pushing the COL.
"...a modern 'tacticool' stock..." There are lots of repro's of the folding parastock and modern synthetic stocks available. Some are better than others.
The whole issue is the internet inspired perception that the .30 carbine isn't powerful enough. The nonsense about it not penetrating Chicom quilted jackets.
"...15.5 grains of 4227..." That's half a grain over max for a carbine.

I had the impression that the problem with the Chinese jackets was people trying to shoot at them well beyond the 100-150 yards that the round is really good to. Sure, you can hit someone that far out, but that doesn't mean that the bullet has enough energy to do much.

Lyman's had loads going from 90 to 125 grains IIRC, and I think the little sheet that came with my dies had a 135 grain load. Most of those though were cast bullets, which the sheet with the dies says can make it as cheap to shoot as .22s. Don't know if that's true or not.

Gifted, that is just a bad rumor. There is a video of a guy in texas who shoot at the chinese jacket which he had poured water on and freezed and shot at at 100 yd and it went right through it.

That should pretty much stop those ridiculous rumors that the 30 carbine can not go through a simple cotton over coat or that chinese soldiers would freeze water on their coats to stop the bullets.

More than likely, the US GI would not hit the side of a aircraft carrier and then blamed it on the gun/round.

BTW, if you want to see the video the link in on the mythbusters website forum.

Also BTW, I shoot 30 carbine at 200 yards steel plates, does almost as much damage as a 223. and again, enough energy to kill any soldier at that distance.

Why not an AR-15 uper in .30 Carbine (7.62x33mm)? Should fit the mag well.

I don't think it's recommended as a deer cartridge, but it has been used as such nevertheless. My uncle "stole" mine and used it for this purpose many moons ago. He later bought it from me, but soon afterward traded it towards a double-barrel shotgun that he just had to have. :banghead:

It was really tough to be his nephew sometimes!

I sell the telogreikas (padded coats) that the Red Army wore in WW2 and were worn by the NK's and Chicoms in the Korean War. If someone is feeling brave (or stupid), I will sell you one for "experimentation" purposes. No warrantee as to bullet stopping is given or implied.

Don

I also can't understand why the Carbine crowd didn't take to the 5.7 Johnson.
With just a simple barrel change your "spare" M1 Carbine can launch bullets at (a measured) 3,000 fps.

Carbine brass can easily be resized to 5.7.

And it's a very impressive M2.

Instead of fooling with the FN 5.7 there was already a better small 5.7 round available.
Stick a 30 grain AP round in the necked down M1 Carbine and you'll see some armor piercing.

The 5.7 Johnson is on the left, FN 5.7 middle and fired FN 5.7 on the right.
This Johnson is loaded with a long 55 gr bullet. The normal bullet is a JSP or FMJ 40 gr Hornet bullet.

I have to admit I've just never gotten why people love the 30 carbine round so much. It IS a pistol quality round designed for a rifle. I own a lever rifle in .357 and there is nothing that the 30 carbine can do that my .357 can't do better. It is higher caliber, has more velocity, better range, and better bullet selection. The only thing the M1 has over the lever rifle is the magazine fed semi-auto design and that is a rifle issue, not a round issue.

I realize that the M1 has a great history and people love it because of that. But from a performance standpoint I'm just not impressed by it. Now if they made an M1 type weapon with a rimless .357 I think a lot of people would be interested in it.

"...has more velocity..." Who told you that? The .357 is only faster with some loads using like bullet weights. With most powders it's much slower. Especially when using 'normal' handgun bullet weights like a 158.
That same 158 grain bullet drops 34.5" at 300 yards and has less muzzle velocity, not more. A 110 grain .30 carbine drops 27.7" at 300. Not that anyone should be shooting either at deer at 300 yards. Not enough energy with either of 'em. You should read some ballistics charts.

The Carbine was designed to be issued in leu of the 1911. It was not intended to be a front line battle rifle, but it was used that way because of the light weight, high firepower, and ease of operation. There are better rifles, but there are not better pistol caliber rifles. JMO though.

What are the bullet weights for 5.7 Johnson?
It seems like the .30 Carbine could just use a necking down. Keep the bullet weight, but neck the round down to a higher BC. Suddenly, you'd have a really good all-around light carbine. Not that the M1 isn't a really good all-around carbine, just that it could be better.

Nolo
What are the bullet weights for 5.7 Johnson?

Click to expand...

40 grains.

I've used a lot of inexpensive 55 grain FMJ for full auto in the 5.7.
The 55 gr bullet won't stabilize and key holes at about 15 yards but it's cheap full auto shooting.

The .357 is only faster with some loads using like bullet weights. With most powders it's much slower. Especially when using 'normal' handgun bullet weights like a 158.

Click to expand...

I have read a ton of ballistics charts but if you are going to make a comparison you have to compare apples to apples. You can't claim that the .357 has less velocity and then compare the 30 carbine 110 grain round to the .357 158 grain round to prove the point.

I checked winchesters site hoping to get an honest comparison but the only .357 round they have listed in the rifle catagory is the 158 grain. However, even that has a MV of 1830 fps and a ME of 1175 compared to the 30 Carbines MV of 1990 and ME of 967. When I check in the pistol section I see they list a 125 Grn round of the same type that develops over 200 fps more MV out of the pistol than the 158 Grn round does. I would expect at least the same from that round out of the rifle and even better if we drop the bullet weight even more.

I agree that this is all very powder dependent though. None the less, we shouldn't be using either of these rounds out at 300 or even 200 meters. Hell, I wouldn't use a 30-30 out at 300 meters and it's a real rifle round. But inside of 150 meters I just feel that the .357 is a superior round to the 30 carbine for pretty much any application you would use them for. YMMV.

I just feel that the .357 is a superior round to the 30 carbine for pretty much any application you would use them for.

Click to expand...

Oh, I don't know about that.

A friend shooting my M2.

(click on picture)

I own a lever rifle in .357 and there is nothing that the 30 carbine can do that my .357 can't do better.

Click to expand...

The .357 and 30 Carbine rounds are so close I don't think it's worth arguing about. It's just a toss up, heavier slower bullet or faster lighter weight bullet.

But the big advantage the Carbine has over the .357 is semi auto.
Off hand I can't remember a successful .357 semi auto rifle.

I like the lever gun but compared to the semi auto, for the average shooter, they are too slow to operate, can't use high cap magazines, and are too slow to reload.

The .357 and 30 Carbine rounds are so close I don't think it's worth arguing about. It's just a toss up, heavier slower bullet or faster lighter weight bullet.

Click to expand...

+1. One isn't gonna kill anything that the other won't as well.

Don

"Why has the .30 carbine round been a commercial failure? (Or, why have so few firearms been chambered for it?)"

Not sure I'd agree that it has been a commercial failure, as such. For many years during the 1960 to maybe 1975 period, many rifle makers chambered for it and a few hand guns were too. Several makers produced copies that were snapped up because the surplus rifles became hard to get. And for years, many after market parts were available for it; stocks, sights, etc.

What happened to them is what happened to many other rounds and guns in a faddish society, other things were in the movies or were more powerful or more versatile or just newer and that took attention away from the little .30. Sales slowed and finally stopped after a pretty long and successful run.

Same kind of thing happened to the Savage 99, Winchester 70, 88 and 100, Browning Auto-5, Reminton ADL/BDL, the .250 and .257, 7x57, cartridges, etc. They and others are gone now but they were commercial successes in their time. But times change.

Today's biggest fads are ugly black handguns with huge magazines and rifles with weird plastic stocks carrying oversized "Tactical" scopes and flashlights along with silly lazers, not cute little wooden stocked sporting rifles with irons! But this too will pass, pretty stuff always comes back!

"Why has the .30 carbine round been a commercial failure? (Or, why have so few firearms been chambered for it?)"

Click to expand...

I don't think the .30 Carbine is a failure either, but if I've got my firearms history correct, what the .30 Carbine was based on was a complete flop. I'm talking about the .32 Winchester Self Loading cartridge for the Model 1905 Winchester semi-automatic rifle. Just what were they thinking, I wonder?

Nolo: Universal already did it... From the 1971 Shooter's Bible:

I've got a UK built "lever action" AR in .30 carbine & and its a great little round.
The pistol grip pushes forward to open the bolt and the normal spring in the butt returns the bolt.

It always gets attention at the indoor range (25m & 50m) as its so LOUD !!
I've shot mine out to 300yards or so on Military knockdown targets.

I run mine using modified 15 and 30 round mags, plus have a CNC machined new aftermarket mag that allows me to use speer 125 grain heads...

Pics below are old, rifle now has YHM BUIS and an Eotech 553

Rifle is built by a company called Southern Gun http://www.southern-gun.co.uk/

Cheers
Steven

I remember when I was in my teens and on my parent's ranch. There was an old abandoned deer stand off in the distance and I decided to take a few shots at it with my Underwood carbine. It was at about 300 yards and I was using FMJ loads(don't remember which). I went over to see where I was hitting on the 1/4" plywood deer stand and I had only hit my point of aim once. The other hits were a little off center. Inside was a freshly fired .30 carbine bullet lying on the plywood floor. It was definately mine, and was still warm. This was the round that I hit the deer stand dead center with and the other two rounds had passed through the front and back penetrating a total of two 1/4" plywood panels. Not sure if it was a weak load, but if it was then my accuracy would of been more off. After seeing that and hearing about the penetration problems in Korea, I can believe in the war stories.

I've gotta go with M/2's commentary. I also own one and its far, far superior to ANY submachine gun firing ANY pistol cartridge.....If you doubt that statement, then just dump one 30 round stick into a junk car or anything that'd qualify as somewhat protective cover.........I'd submit that you are in for a real surprise.

I've also heard the stories about the difficulty stopping Chinese in the Korean conflict.....But I heard 'em from friends I served with that had actually been there. They agreed that it often took multiple hits to bring one down unless you hit an immediately disabling area..........of the three guys I'm talking about every single one said that the bullets COMPLETELY penetrated the ChiCom's body. One fellow related seeing the jacket filler flying out when he "stitched" his attacker. They ALL said the Chinamen died, just that with those non expanding bullets at the speed they were running took a bit longer to kill 'em.

Remember, that .30 Carbine round was designed as a replacement for the .45 pistol....For damned sure it provides far, far more range and practical accuracy....

And I repeat, I'd still take one M/2 over ANY submachine gun!