DPMS sponsoring fighters?

am simply saying it does nothing to improve upon the shooting sports image.

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Doesn't hurt it either.

My opinion and nothing more.

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Amen!

Someone please explain to me how shooting breeds violence. I just can't seem to draw a parallel between fighting and violence, ---and shooting and violence.
Unless the whole point of shooting is to injure, maim, or kill, this argument is totally baseless. I would surmise that the majority of you leave the range without hurting anyone.

I was involved in that sport as a corner man for several years. I am a SD instructor with 20 years of training, an IDPA shooter as well as the current "man to beat" in tactical shotgun matches in my area. I also worked as a bouncer in a beer joint for 5 years. I guess you could say I have seen it all and in my not so humble opinion, the reason that the "traditional martial arts" people resent the UFC is that the MMA fighters will make short work of most "martial artists" who think a fight should look artistic. Real fights are not pretty, they are not glamorous and all things being equal, it usually comes down to who is the strongest, fittest and most agressive.

The modern AR15 is the Samuri sword of the day!

Someone please explain to me how shooting breeds violence. I just can't seem to draw a parallel between fighting and violence, ---and shooting and violence.
Unless the whole point of shooting is to injure, maim, or kill, this argument is totally baseless. I would surmise that the majority of you leave the range without hurting anyone.

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This depends on the side of the fence you sit on.

As I said, hunting is considered by some to be a violent, disgusting, barbaric sport.
http://www.hsus.org/hunt/campaigns/

The HSUS's hunting campaign promotes the humane treatment of wildlife by educating the public and lawmakers on the cruelty inherent in sport hunting, by targeting the most reprehensible practices.

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This group, http://www.all-creatures.org/cash/home.html, blamed the Omaha mall shooting on hunting.

Gunman used hunting skills at Omaha mall

The world was stunned by the senseless shootings at the Westroads Mall and we mourn for the families and friends of the victims. While nothing can ease the pain of the survivors, it is time for the firearms industry and Nebraska Game and Parks to take partial responsibility for these wanton acts of violence, since incidents such as these expose the fine line between violence against wildlife and violence against humans.

Soon after the shootings took place, NBC4.com reported that Robert Hawkins was seen with a gun and was believed to be going hunting, something he did quite often. Hawkins now joins other infamous killers such as the teens who slaughtered twelve Columbine High School students in Littleton, Colorado in 1999, and the Jonesboro, Arkansas children who killed four classmates and a teacher in 1998, who were hunters before turning their guns toward people.

Sadly, the killing skills used by Hawkins are taught to Nebraska's children by the Game and Parks Commission under the guise of "Hunter Education." As long as state agencies conspire with the weapons industry in promoting violence as recreation, senseless killings will always take place.

Firearms and ammunition excise taxes are allocated to support and promote sport hunting - violence disguised as recreation - and the wildlife management business benefits every time a gun or ammunition is purchased, regardless of how those weapons are used. The time has come to re-write the firearms tax laws and have gun taxes support the medical/funeral expenses of the victims of gun violence, as well as supporting crime fighting programs.

Please join our members and supports in Grand Island and across the nation in eradicating the cancer of sport hunting forever. Visit www.cashwildwatch.org to help make the world a safer place for wildlife and people.

Joe Miele,

Vice President

The Committee to Abolish Sport Hunting

New Paltz, NY

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http://www.theindependent.com/stories/12092007/opi_letters09.shtml

simplicity

sounds like maybe some of our fellow forum members need to watch UFC 1-4 and the entire gracie's in action series.
QUOTE]



Few men are able to maintain an articulate argument on any subject. It often degenerates into "this is better than that and I know because I . . . . " It's not very High Road, it's also not High Intelligence. This thread turning into a MMA versus traditional martial arts argument is probably one of the lowest examples of why modern martial artists, for the most part, aren't.

When we look at the things in the world that apeal to the surface, the superficial, we should look deeper at why we are drawn to those things. One of the great pitfalls of the modern American Psyche is overconfidence. It is reliance on the human mind and the flesh, size and strength, glamor, and vanity. This is a strategic mistake on an international level.

My original assertion about fighting events being followed by a rise in violent crime is simply based on experience in my own hometown. As a wrestler and a coach, former member of the U.S Army, and traditional martial artist, I see only insecurity in men who belittle others because of their less aggressive demonstrations of training, or a more wholistic view of the role of warriors in society.

I certainly don't see the wisdom of "you should try a round on a heavy bag" as reason for a superior opinion. You don't know where someone is coming from, where they have been, or what they have done. They have just as much experience as you and have a different opinion.

UFC is very much like the ancient gladiator games. They are athletes, never said otherwise. It seems like my beloved country and ancient Rome have a lot more in common each passing year.

By the way, I was thinking of buying an AR or an AK and can't make up my mind. Anyone have some advice?


st

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Did anyone hear Tim Sylvia mention that he'd be attending shot show the next day?

A huge difference between todays MMA fighter and the Roman gladiators is that modern fighters choose to be there in the ring. Sport fighting is an example of the "pursuit of happiness" between two consenting adults who want to fight. Just like owning a modern weapon makes others happy. Some people enjoy the challenge of the octagon. This is really about liberty. The concept that people should be allowed to run around loose.
Evidently DPMS finds this sport a viable market for their product. Just like Playtex finds Oprah a market for theirs. The MMA comunity is one area of society where the warrior spirit has not been crushed yet. That very spirit that threw of King George and founded this country.

your writing style makes my head hurt and im not sure what your getting at.

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well at least your honest!


If I am being drawn off the OP let me rephrase, and you are talking to someone who enjoys the sport, albeit a little less hyped up. I don't have a problem with MMA, I believe that advertising weapons in testosterone laden sporting events which appeal to the simplest level of man are not as effective as...

DPMS getting involved in something that has a more positive and beneficial effect on kids and young adults.

You may feel the need to defend MMA, you can go do that on another forum if it's so important. MMA is chess high speed.

Lacking the skill to debate does not mean changing the argument is ok.

OOPS! There I go with the head hurting thing again, sorry.

I do hope that the RKBA is served by advertising at these events. Imy opinion, there are other venues that would be more ideal in representing shooting culture to the world.


st

The MMA comunity is one area of society where the warrior spirit has not been crushed yet. That very spirit that threw of King George and founded this country.

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I appreciate this, and agree. There are valid arguments made by some of you, and I will continue thinking about this. Although, and this my explain my bias, I think the true spirit that threw off the yoke of oppression was God's, not man's. Man should be a warrior, however, and that spirit is under assault these days. We should just learn to appreciate different warrior cultures, after all we all look up to the same flag and honor the same constitution.

Interesting thread. I'm not big on MMA really but I don't hate it and will look at it from time to time. I really don't see it as really being bad for the shooting sports if they sponsor it but I'm sure antigunners will find a way to pervert it and twist it around. These things are big with young males I'd say and many are probably potential gun owners if not so already.

As for prostituting ones self thats an interesting analogy also. I once read and semi agree that prostitutes and pro atheletes, especially like MMA or football is similar. Both groups let others abuse/use their bodies for a profit. Pro football is brutal on ones body.

The MMA comunity is one area of society where the warrior spirit has not been crushed yet. That very spirit that threw of King George and founded this country.

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Nice, the warrior spirit slaughtered countless Native Americans to make way for European "tourists". Thats your argument? Really? I think we could do with a lot less warrior culture.

Like Sam Tucker said, there are many more appropriate venues than one associated with blood and violence. And no for those that grossly misunderstood me (Strat81), I am not saying a percentage of people don't feel that way about the shooting sports. I don't think we can try to account for every last persons opinions. The point is, are we advancing our cause, or retarding it? Does the UFC help or hurt our image? It is naive to think it does not have some sort of effect.

Both groups let others abuse/use their bodies for a profit. Pro football is brutal on ones body.

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If we want to talk about jobs where one sells one's body for the amusement of others, let's talk ballet... After all, most world-class ballerinas can only dance until they're in their late twenties. After that, they get too many injuries...

I think Sam's biggest complaint (and please correct me, if I'm wrong) is that sports like UFC and MMA are structured around the marketing, and hype, of unbridaled violence. They seem to want to sell the blood lust, and not the idea that these competitors are finely-tuned athletes first, and fighters second. In my experience, all martial arts (or mixtures thereof), start with the idea of respect. Respect for your opponent, respect for your teacher, for all those that have excelled before you, and all those to come after you. With all these comes self-respect. Marketing only the fight, and not the respect, cheapens the sport for those that think the respect should come first and foremost. As a martial artist, I can respect that viewpoint.

Promoting guns in such a venue thus may take the idea of "sport" away from "shooting sports". We've all seen the stereotype the antis have for us: beer-swilling louses with shoot-at-anything-that-moves attitudes. Some may be worried that associating the shooting sports with UFC will "cheapen" the values of respect and honor that we all want to see promoted.

I have no idea whether UFC et al actually do promote an increase in violent crime, but I doubt it. Either way, I still want to see gun and gun accessory makers market their wares without all the fanfare or pomp. Buying a gun should be no more remarkable than buying roller blades...

OK... read some of the posts in-depth, and grazed some.

I'll see if I get the gist.


We are wondering if:

DPMS sponsoring a UFC fighter damages the image of the firearms community.

Whether UFC fighting itself promotes violence in our society.


I'll inject my opinions into this thread.


First proposition....

Does DPMS sponsoring a UFC fighter damage the image of the firearms community?

Overall, I don't think it does. Frankly, most people outside of the firearms community wouldn't know the DPMS logo if they saw it. My father is an avid hunter, and he wouldn't recognize their logo. Those that WOULD recognize who have a bad taste for UFC likely ALREADY have a negative image of firearms. The blend of the two do nothing to alter their already negative view on both independently.

Second proposition....

UFC fighting itself promotes violence in our society.


I don't believe it does. I'll explain.

Those that see UFC fighting as promoting violence in our society are seeing it though a modern lens. They are seeing it in terms of our society today. I believe that in order to guage the impact of such a sport on society, one must look to examples of such through our history and analyze the impact of those sports on our society leading to this point.

The reality is that through our past, there have been numerous violent sports. Those sports originally had very little in the way of protective gear and people got hurt and bloody. Our society watched this.

I think to boxing. In earlier times, boxing was bare nuckles. That translates to a lot of blood, bruises, and such. I don't see that this sport translated into societal mayhem at that time.

Today, we have boxing with protective gear such as mouthpieces and heavy gloves. More than likely, the fighters train with headgear on. We've taken a lot of the damage out of that sport.

Football is no different. The evolution of protective equipment has been extensive in this sport.

Again, we do not see the mayhem in society that would correlate a link between "violent" sports and violence on the streets.


I don't pretend that violence DID NOT exist in earlier times. We all know better. However, I don't believe we had the lack of respect for life that many have today.

So what happened?

Is it what we are seeing on TV and in movies?

Is it violence in sports?

Or is it the message that society is giving children growing up?

And is it the lack of guidence parents are giving children today?


I believe it is the latter two.


At one time, society HAD an idea of right and wrong. Oh, society had its problems... let's not pretend otherwise. But there were more institutions of ethical guidance in our society. The nuclear family had a strong influence, and so did religious institutions. No, I am not getting on a religious kick right now. I frankly don't get involved in church activities very often. But I bet you dollars-to-donuts that I WILL once Jenn and I have children (we're trying) It will be important to give that message to our children-- even if I'd rather be home watching TV.


That brings me to the second point... Parenting.

Somewhere down the line, parents have stopped parenting. Oh, don't give me that look... you all know it.

This is from my limited experience and perspectives. I spent a lot of single years living in a large city prior to meeting my wife and moving back to the rural world. Being around 30 years old and single, you can expect that you will be dating a lot of single moms. Frankly, it isn't all that easy to find a woman past the age of 26 who HASN'T had a child these days in a lot of areas.

In these situations, I saw one recurring theme-- being FRIENDS with your child. It almost seems like "Parenting through Guilt." Guilt because the father is not in the kid's life. I heard a lot of "he's my special little man" statements in those days.

I've seen this firsthand with my own sister. Her piece of crap husband ran off with a tramp. Up until recently, guit-ridden mother and "popcorn" dad have been competing for my nephew's affections by showering gifts on him.


News flash: Your kid DOESN'T need you to be his friend. He can get those at school. He NEEDS a parent.

And then there are those being raised by grandparents. My wife is a preschool teacher. This year alone, over 60% of her class of 4 year olds are being raised by grandparents. Sorry... grandparents are no substitute for the parents in terms of discipline. I've seen this again with my own parents. Things that would have gotten me in SERIOUS trouble get a "talking to" when my little nephew does them. Grandparents should not have to be the discipline in a kid's life. At the same time, if they have no choice....

Next, I've seen parents who say things like "I don't have all the answers... what right do I have to impose MY views on a kid?" Are you serious??? You don't have the right NOT to. Parents don't have the luxury of being wishy-washy on issues. Parents MUST at least give the appearence of confidence. Growing up, I thought my father knew everything. He was 22 years old when I was born. He was always a rock to me. Very few people in their 20's can say that now. As I became an adult, I realized that my Dad was making it up as he went and was just hoping he did OK. He didn't know everything, but I'd have never believed that.

Sometimes it isn't WHAT you say, but the fact that you DO say it.

Today, my father is my best friend. But he didn't have the luxury of being my "friend" until he got past the years of parenting.



Bottom line....


Our society has become selfish. Everyone is "special." Here's a reality check.... if EVERYONE is special, then no one is special.

People believe that they are special because they have had it drilled into them since birth. People believe that their wants and needs are above others well-being. Parents don't want to be bothered with actual parenting. Parents are having kids and refusing to BE parents.

No ethics or boundries are being set within the home. Everything that a kid learns is from the TV. Society is permissive on practically EVERY level. And then we wonder why Johnny is unable to discern right from wrong.


No... UCF is not the cause of violence. Lack of parenting is.



I say this as a black belt and former competition kickboxer. However, I DO NOT watch UFC because frankly, I don't care to watch sports. I don't watch football, either.



-- John

I'm surprised that gun manufacturers didn't start advertising in MMA sooner than now. UFC events and the reality show TUF are dominating forces in key demographics. Even Harley Davidson has recognized this and purchased the center ring spot for several PPV events.

As for the "image" of shooting sports, there needs to be one before it makes sense to worry about it. Shooting sports are largely unknown to the public and not advertising to key demographics will keep them that way. Besides, I thought that we as gunowners wanted more citizens to join us? Advertising to a group of people who as a whole are active and have disposable income is an effective means of accomplishing that goal.

ceetee seems to be pretty much on it as far as I can see,
and this guy;

That brings me to the second point... Parenting.

Somewhere down the line, parents have stopped parenting.

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states himself so well that his points are well taken. It would be harder to stop firearm ownership if a wide swathe of the young adult population were increasingly exposed to the values of shooting and got involved.

I restate that American popular culture could use an infusion of disciplined, exemplary conduct for young men, especially in the shooting sports. UFC is an AR with rails and lights and red dots and free floats etc, traditional training, like boy scouts or classical martial arts, are perhaps the old wood stock bolt actions. There is room for both.

It may take everything we have because great powers are at work in destroying America's attachment to citizenship.

And in the end, I wouldn't let some argument over this particular issue keep me too divided from MMAs, TMAs, RKBA, even of some are AH's


st

As far as I know both Matt Hughes & Tim Silvia both have done shots with DPMS. Matt Hughes has also done advertisements for the NRA. Both fighters do support the second amendment and belong to pro-gun groups.
I am glad to see DPMS reaching out into different advertising venues.
I do not think that "violence associated with UFC" will hurt DPMS, come on guys it is a sport just like football, or anything else. In my opinion MMA fighters are better athletes than most "professional athletes" and deserve a lot of respect.
I don't think any type of negative image would come of being associated with MMA. It is probably a smart advertising move since a lot of people who are into MMA are also into firearms.

Do anti-gunners even watch MMA? If not, they're not going to make a connection to begin with. All DPMS was doing was advertising to a likely demographic, it seems.

wait a sec

I thought Hughes had a rock river arms in .243
Oh well, maybe he switched, that was about a year and a half ago...

Who cares, let's just do what we usually do here and that's alienate fellow gun owners because we don't like what they do for a living.

I was there, and met their fighter. Big huge 6'8" dude.
Do I think that UFC causes fights? YES. Ive been to their shows. If anyone's been to their shows, don't tell me that a UFC post game is like NFL or NASCAR. But do I think it should be banned? Hell, no.

As a matter of fact, I think DPMS's hiring UFC guys to rep them isn't bad. But here's my problem - did they have to pick Tim Sylvia? For a sport that's trying to gain respectability and normalcy, do we really want to be assciated with this?

As a matter of fact, I think DPMS's hiring UFC guys to rep them isn't bad. But here's my problem - did they have to pick Tim Sylvia? For a sport that's trying to gain respectability and normalcy, do we really want to be assciated with this?

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I would imagine that Tim picked DPMS, not the other way around.

BTW, I'm not a huge Sylvia fan, because quite frankly he's very boring to watch, but what what did you mean by this:

do we really want to be assciated with this?

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Because he is flexing and celebrating after a victory? Or because he has tattoos?

Doing a quick search, I looked for any record of Tim Sylvia committing any criminal acts and found zero...So now I guess we are judging people on their appearance? That really helps are cause...and very high road too.

No, Sylvia's a great guy, etc.
But it makes us look like barbarians at a time when the antis are doing their best to paint us as barbarians.