Politicians are secretly adding to the machinegun registry, bypassing 922(o)?!?

For sake of argument, couldn't FOIA requests be done to certain registry entries to see if some machine guns made after 86 are actually in the registry?

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No, that the NFA registry is considered private tax payer records and are not subject to FOIA requests.

I'm talking about specific entries here. You might be able to do a FOIA for the "records of the records" that don't show any specific info on any specific person. Maybe something like the total number of records in the registry or something like that could e obtained from a FOIA. (Not that the ATF knows how many records are in the regisgtry).

Wouldn't it be funny if this were actually true? (Note the use of the subjunctive case.)

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You are my new favorite person of the day for knowing about the subjunctive. However, case implies declension- hence, nouns. I believe you mean subjunctive tense, verbs.

Ummm, this is completely fake.

People who pay $15k for a machine gun are gonna know if it was made after 1986 or not.

I don't believe any of it.

Ummm, this is completely fake.

People who pay $15k for a machine gun are gonna know if it was made after 1986 or not.

I don't believe any of it.

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So what if they know? If you were given the chance to legally buy a post-86 but transferrable machine gun (assuming you could afford it), wouldn't you?

If it's legal, it's legal. The reason we can't get new MGs is because the BATFE won't accept the $200 "tax" and approve a registration - if they do accept the tax and approve the registration, then that gun is legal, regardless of when it was made or initially registered.

If they are legally registered, how are the owners committing a felony?

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The reason we can't get new MGs is because the BATFE won't accept the $200 "tax" and approve a registration - if they do accept the tax and approve the registration, then that gun is legal, regardless of when it was made or initially registered.

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Legal registration does not equal legal possession.
The BATFE certainly could register a new MG.
It's still illegal for non-police/military persons to possess one, thanks to 922(o) - which explicitly prohibits possession, not registration.

ATF Form V pretty much allows for arbitrary transfer of machineguns to anyone the ATF wants to. But as for making them transferable, that's just illegal corruption. Form V is legal corruption.

First thing they need to learn is how to spell and properly use the phrase "per se". Then they need to do some fact checking. Then they need to cite some sources.

Removal of the tin foil hats would also be a plus.

Brad

Democratic Undergound gave us the fully automatic revolver sold to school kids from ice cream trucks. What's not to believe?

And if true, the answer to abuse of the system will be to punish the non-abusers.

No, that the NFA registry is considered private tax payer records and are not subject to FOIA requests.

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That's not entirely true. If you own a specific machine gun certain information is available via FOIA. Personal information about prior owners is redacted, but IIRC the date the Form 1 was filed and the gun was entered into the registry is one of the pieces of information that is available. Again, you must be the current owner of the gun.

If the manufacturer of the gun is still in business, the gun's owner can also ask them for the date of manufacture. That would work for the DU poster's Colt M16A2, but not for many other transferrable guns whose manufacturers went out of business years ago.

ATF Form V pretty much allows for arbitrary transfer of machineguns to anyone the ATF wants to.

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No, it doesn't. It merely relieves one of paying the $200 tax (which, when NFA was enacted, was the pre-inflation equivalent of about $3200).

922(o) prohibits possession of post-'86 machineguns. That it may be properly registered does not relieve anyone from the criminal penalties for having one.

Hmmm DU and talk about machine guns There must be an election going on or did I miss something

I don't buy it. I know too many people at NFA, more than a few manufacturers plus many senior agents and inspectors. Never heard of such a thing.

Coming from DU makes it highly suspect. If I see it in SAR, I might be incline to believe it.

ctdonath,

a transfer to or by, or possession by or under the authority of, the United States or any department or agency thereof or a State, or a department, agency, or political subdivision thereof

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This can be interpreted to mean that if the bureau decided tomorrow to process the forms, the tax stamp could be considered authorization by BATFE, which I'm pretty sure is a department or agency of the U.S. Technically, the statute didn't do anything but allow the bureau to stop taking the forms.

All we really need to nullify it is for a president to issue an executive order telling the BATFE that giving a tax stamp is authority enough, and to process the forms as they have in the past. Reagan could have done this before his signature was dry on FOPA.

DUThe Hughes Amendment had an interesting side effect. If you read Chapter 18, 922 (o) it is not a ban per say (sic) but demands Government approval for the manufacture and sale of a machine gun after May 19,1986, the date of enactment. There have been rumors floating around for years that certain politicians have been registering machineguns and selling them.

Recently, evidence of this came to light when the BATFE screwed up and confiscated an MG that was listed as a transferable that had been sold to a donor of a political person who once he received the firearm, stopped donating. The gun in question wasn't even in production in the 1980's. It was first produced in the mid 1990's.

Also, if you speak to the BATFE, and ask how many transferable machine guns are on the NFRTR, they will give you a strange answer. The number was fixed in 1986, so it shouldn't be hard to say "there are X amount of transferable MG's on the registry". Instead, this is what you get, "Between 175,000 and 250,000." Or some variation of that spread.

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Two, before the "freeze" on NFA MG registrations, ATF had only a foggy idea of how many legally registered MGs there were. AND there WERE and ARE war trophies properly papered with the military that through ignorance were not entered on the NFA registry, and which CAN and ARE eligible for grandfathered NFA registration if the Vets or their heirs have the military paperwork and know their rights. Also, just before the law passed there were rumors of Class II manufacturers serial-numbering 1.5" pipe and registering them as civilian legal Sten Guns, as well-as Class III dealers registering military and police stock as civilian transferable. Before the Hughes Amendment there were supposedly 128,000 MGs registered as transferable to civilians and the Hughes Amendment added about 85,000 to that stock almost overnight. The grandfathered Sten tubes would be "new" manufacture but technically pre-86 "old" receivers. Bottom line is ATF paperwork handling has been so poor over the past 70 years of the NFA no one really know how many legal transferable MGs there actually are. Owners must keep their paperwork in order in case ATF has lost theirs. So if you speak to the BATFE, and ask how many transferable machine guns are on the NFRTR they do not know: they have to guess. 128,000 to 256,000 is probably an honest guess. And ATF may or may not count post-86 "dealer samples" which include WWII guns that may be of research interest to police but appear to be dealer's collectible items.

One, the Hughes Amendment by freezing the pool of registered MGs has driven collectors' prices out-of-sight by about a factor of ten (1000%): before the Hughes Amendment, I looked at buying a WWII Reising 50 for $150.00 (plus $200.00 NFA transfer tax); today, a similar condition Reising 50 starts at $2,000.00 You find that MG collectors are now folks who seem attracted by the status symbolism of the high prices--lawyers, doctors and bankers--and fewer true military history buffs. If there is corruption going on in the NFA registry process, it is because of the artificial inflation of the prices brought about by the Hughes Amendment which scrwed up the NFA process.

Again, the source is Democratic Underground, and I am still waiting on my ice cream man to sell me a fully automatic revolver.

I thought I was getting over my terminal paranoia, and then I had to read this thread.

People, if you do find an MP-40 in your grand father's attic, I definitely recommend cutting the receiver up. I would rather see a historic weapon destroyed, than to see it sold to finance a political campaign.

Also, just before the law passed there were rumors of Class II manufacturers serial-numbering 1.5" pipe and registering them as civilian legal Sten Guns, as well-as Class III dealers registering military and police stock as civilian transferable

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I'm quite interested in stories like these, like Military Armament Corp (MAC) registering all those sheets for MAC's and the mad rush to register them.

Another thing I am interested in is raw numbers, like how many of something is left, from my thorough research (An hour on the Internet after work ) I determined there are around:

9 Glock 17's
6-10 Miniguns
3 Beretta 93's
50-100 M-60's

All are approximate,transferable,and just a wild guess.

On a side note that is completely off topic DEALERS please don't put pre or post-samples on Gunbroker it bugs me to not be able to buy these.