Politicians are secretly adding to the machinegun registry, bypassing 922(o)?!?

[jlbraun]

Can anyone substantiate this?!?

http://www.democraticunderground.co...mesg&forum=118&topic_id=161124&mesg_id=161463

The Hughes Amendment had an interesting side effect. If you read Chapter 18, 922 (o) it is not a ban per say but demands Government approval for the manufacture and sale of a machine gun after May 19,1986, the date of enactment. There have been rumors floating around for years that certain politicians have been registering machineguns and selling them.

Recently, evidence of this came to light when the BATFE screwed up and confiscated an MG that was listed as a transferable that had been sold to a donor of a political person who once he received the firearm, stopped donating. The gun in question wasn't even in production in the 1980's. It was first produced in the mid 1990's.

Also, if you speak to the BATFE, and ask how many transferable machine guns are on the NFRTR, they will give you a strange answer. The number was fixed in 1986, so it shouldn't be hard to say "there are X amount of transferable MG's on the registry". Instead, this is what you get, "Between 175,000 and 250,000." Or some variation of that spread.

This problem crosses party lines, and even both sides of the gun control debate. In 2005, a BATFE employee let it slip that one of the top gun control advocates currently in Congress procured a machine gun and got BATFE to register it on a form 1 as a transferable. Why? Well, the gun was obtained for about $700. This elected official sold the gun for $18,500 with much of the money going into a severely depleted campaign fund. How do we know about this? Well, this elected official sold the gun and gave a file with the gun that contained the original sale price and a copy of the original form 1 dated to August of 2004. The owner was concerned and contacted BATFE. He then faxed a copy of the documentation to the agency where the employee in question received it.

The firearm in question is a Colt M16A2 manufacturered in 1993.

This seems to be the norm, not the exception. An HK MP5 conversion sold for $650 in 1985. Today, due to the ban, that same gun commands $8500 or more. An M60 belt fed machine gun sold for $1200 or so in 1985. Today, that same gun will get $25,000. If a politician can buy an MG or acquire one for a few hundred, it's a hell of a way to fund a campaign at a 1000% profit or more per item.

In 1989, BATFE published a comment where they stated that there were 130,000 registered transferable machine guns in the NFRTR. In a recent edition of Small Arms Review, the BATFE are quoted commenting that there are over 185,000 transferable MG's in the registry. Given those numbers, it is likely that there are well over 50,000 contraband machine guns in the hands of politicians and citizens in the US many of whom have no clue that they have committed a felony.

 

[jlbraun]

And the current records I have indicate there are 333,000 registered machineguns in the US.

 

[rocinante]

What a surprise, politicians and people with connections using a system for their own gain while telling the rest of us to pound sand.

 

[Tribal]

Silly OP, the laws don't apply to legislators. Were you sleeping through your social studies classes?

 

[the naked prophet]

If they are legally registered, how are the owners committing a felony? It isn't illegal to register one, it's just that the BATFE won't do it for us. If they'll do it for someone else, who will sell to us, how does that make it any less legal?

 

[TexasRifleman]

This came from DU.

That alone should tell you what you need to know.

Prolly gonna need a second source for that one

 

[wideym]

There are numerous reports of missing forms at the NFA branch. Probably some are due to accidentally destroying or throwing away valid records, miss filing of forms, older forms becoming un-readable due to age, or just plain old misconduct by former empolyees since it's creation.

It does seem strange that the ATF hasn't updated NFA forms into a central computer with new uniform, long lasting paper backups.

 

[shdwfx]

In 2005, a BATFE employee let it slip that one of the top gun control advocates currently in Congress procured a machine gun and got BATFE to register it on a form 1 as a transferable.

I'd like to believe this and it seems plausible.
But, the sketchy details lack credibility. A name would be nice.

 

[Bubbles]

And now we see the real reason that politicians on neither side of the aisle want to repeal 922(o). They are using it to fund their political campaigns.

ETA: If I buy a collectible mg for $700 and sell it less than a year later for $18,500, shouldn't I pay 25% capital gains tax on $17,800? There may be more violations here than just 922(o)...

 

[El Tejon]

Until what '82 or so the entire NFA registry was kept on index cards, some of which were stolen or lost by disgruntled employees.

I can believe that ATFE has no idea what they are dealing with.

 

[Wes Janson]

Citation needed.

 

[Bubbles]

The guy posts a follow-up to his own thread; the responses from his elected officials are interesting. He also states that he recorded his phone calls to them. They should be interesting to hear, should he decide to digitize them and post them publically.

www.democraticunderground.com/discu...mesg&forum=118&topic_id=161124&mesg_id=161522

There is some documentation out there but most of it hasn't been published. I don't know who it is, but someone out there has gotten their hands on a bunch of the form 1 registrations. My understanding is that they intend to drop this bomb sometime before the election this year unless BATFE cleans up it's act and does at a minimum a broad amnesty and stops maliciously prosecuting people. I've been helping where I can but it's not as much or as effective as I would have liked.

If you want to do something about it, my advise is to contact your Senators and Representatives and demand answers. Demand an amnesty and demand hearings on the conduct of the BATFE and why post 86 transferable registrations are happening at all.

Be prepared though, when I contacted several elected officials, I was ridiculed, threatened and two of them even tried to bribe me. Of course, they probably assumed that they were safe doing that, not that I'd record my conversations or anything like that. To say that the response was poisonous is quite the understatement. These people want to protect this little gravy train and they guard it jealously.

 

[wideym]

When someone claims that elected officials ridicule or threaten them, it seem plausible if not likely. But when someone claims that elected officials tried to bribe them instead of demanding a bribe, it sounds like an outright falsehood.

 

[mp510]

In 1989, BATFE published a comment where they stated that there were 130,000 registered transferable machine guns in the NFRTR. In a recent edition of Small Arms Review, the BATFE are quoted commenting that there are over 185,000 transferable MG's in the registry. Given those numbers, it is likely that there are well over 50,000 contraband machine guns in the hands of politicians and citizens in the US many of whom have no clue that they have committed a felony.

The more rationale explanation is that during the early 1980's, the ATF lost ALOT of forms that were supposed to be their record copies. Obviously, those would not have been entered into the NFRTR databased. As the years progressed and the guns came up for transfer, ATF has accepted previously approved forms as proof that the weapon was registered before 19 May 1986.

There have also been a number of instances when ATF has, as a result of the previous history of paperwork loss, ATF has accepted other paperwork, such as military bring-back papers, to allow transfers when the item does not show up on the NFRTR and the existing owner claims to have lost his copy. (I doubt this is a frequent occurance, but I have read accounts of it having occurred).

 

[Tyris]

How do I get in on this racket?

I am tired of these crappy old ass 20 year old guns being sold for insane money.

If I ever buy another machine gun, I want it to be brand spanking new. New design. Not some beater ar15 variant. I'll pay $10k for an auto P90, Glock18, or better yet, hook me up with a AN-94.

Whats up Senators from Oregon, can we hook this up? I gots $$$..

-T

 

[Mike OTDP]

It's believable. Hang around on the subguns.com board for a while and you will hear a LOT of horror stories.

Basically, ATF has quietly conceded that their pre-1968 records have a 50% error rate. Post-1968 recordkeeping is better - 90 to 95%.

But it is the older guns that pose the problems. Grandpaw may have come home from Germany, Japan, or Korea with a Mauser Schnellfeuer 712. He HAD the paperwork...but ATF has lost their copy. And now, his next of kin are digging through his papers, not quite sure what to do. IF they can find appropriate paperwork - and if ATF does not try to cut their throats - they can sell the gun for $12K. Otherwise, the best they can do legally is strip it for parts and destroy the frame.

Before 1986, ATF would allow people in this situation to re-register the gun and get it properly papered. Today...well, today there is no such flexibility allowed.

My own opinion? If I had my way, Congress would pass the Machinegun Market Destruction Act and repeal 922(o). At a minimum, the amnesty power needs to be used to support a re-registration period. All NFA owners get sent a list of what ATF thinks they own...and anybody with something not listed can register it.

Because the current situation is shoving more and more legally owned NFA items into a legal limbo...and I suspect that a fair number of heirs are not mentioning to ATF what Grand-dad had in the locked trunk.

 

[Soybomb]

He's making incredible claims with no evidence to back them up. When he wants to be taken seriously he'll post some proof. Lets see the forms, lets hear the taps of his reps threatening and bribing him. Until then I'm going back and listening to the sexually suggestive voicemails mccain leave for me. Trust me, they exist.

 

[rino451]

oday, due to the ban, that same gun commands $12500 or more. An M60 belt fed machine gun sold for $1200 or so in 1985. Today, that same gun will get $40,000.

- fixed it...

Want an MG? Become an SOT for a while. When you stop being one, I believe that the "law" allows you to keep what you have. Not transferable, though IIRC.

 

[El Tejon]

Ummm, which law is that?

 

[mp510]

Want an MG? Become an SOT for a while. When you stop being one, I believe that the "law" allows you to keep what you have. Not transferable, though IIRC.

Ex SOT's are allowed to retain pre-86 dealer samples and transferables when they go out of business. Post-samples need to be destroyed, transferred to an SOT or LE Agency, or abandoned to ATF.

 

[Beagle-zebub]

Wouldn't it be funny if this were actually true? (Note the use of the subjunctive case.)

This story, however, is a lot like that business that arose a year or two ago with the Chicago city councilwoman (a Democrat) who had 500 handguns in her house or something like that. Am I remembering something that didn't happened, and if not, could somebody post a link to that story?

 

[Gene_WI]

I am not surprised one bit. After all politicians can carry in DC with impunity? So if the DC gun bans do not apply to them why would 922(o).

Also I wonder if there are any police agencies that do the same. There was a case in NY state involving private assault weapons. A recent Illinois case with police having unregistered MGs.

etc...

 

[Gunnerpalace]

I'd put money on this being true, look at the VPC and their shenanigans.

 

[Punkermonkey]

Put me down for one of those MP5's at $8500.

 

[daskro]

For sake of argument, couldn't FOIA requests be done to certain registry entries to see if some machine guns made after 86 are actually in the registry?