Bach and Firearms?

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Paulus

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Hey, that was an attention grabber, no?

Seriously, I was listening to the St. Matthew Passion this afternoon (today's the beginning of Holy Week). I'm a big Bach fan...yes, I'm Lutheran.

I was just curious to ask the historians around here what sort of firearms would Bach have seen during his life in Germany 1685-1750?

Bach spent the latter part of his career in Leipzig which was ruled by this guy: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Augustus_II_the_Strong

Any help?

Paulus
 
To answer the original question, while there may have been some wheel lock and match lock weapons still in use, the majority of small arms would have been flint lock during Bach's lifetime.
 
Campers, gotta say I can't dig those long-haired cats...

I'm in a period of cool 50's and 60's jazz myself... Miles, 'Trane, Bird, and Brubeck...

And that was a much more interesting time for boomsticks. There wasn't a lot of innovation in Europe, but when the technology was transferred to the Americas, stuff like the rifled barrels of the Pennsylvania Long Rifles came into the sphere.
 
Tocata and Fugue in G Minor

--absolutely awesome when felt emitting from a 17th century pipe organ and you're in the choir loft (Rothenburg an der Tauber). Modern metal maniacs wouldn't believe it possible without electricity!

During the late 17th and early 18th centuries Bach might have seen match locks at the "low end" and wheel locks in the hands of his patrons. Most were single-shot types, whether long- or hand-guns. A few German and Austrian makers were starting to produce combination guns with two or more barrels. Rifling was introduced about that time. Examples of the, relatively, short-barrel, "Jaeger" rifle became popular in the 18th century. These eventually evolved into our "Pennsylvania" and "Kentucky" rifles.

Waidmannsheil!
 
Rifling was introduced about that time.

Nah, rifling was already around for 100 years. Almost 50-years before Bach's birth, Prince Rupert of England was dazzling his entourage by hitting church bells from horseback with his rifled pistols.

By the 1680's European armies had long transitioned out of matchlocks and had established national armies using snaphaunce (firelock/flintlock) devices. These took over from wheelocks because they were easier/cheaper to manufacture, not because they were more advanced in technology.
 
OK, I'll go with that

I try to keep things brief.

Rifling became generally available during the period. As an innovation, I'll agree that it had been around for a much longer period. It made its way into the hands of the average Jaeger to assist in harvesting his quota of rehwild at about 1650 to 1750. These are the shooters Bach was more likely to encounter. The military always has been a few steps ahead.
 
So, ordinary law officers from the local Elector/Prince and soldiers would be sporting firearms? Or would they be peons having some short swords?

Were the match/flintlock gun users a special branch, like the artillery, in today's army? The "normal" police/soldiers were just out in large numbers with edged weapons?

Yes, I know that I should just go the library and look it up myself. But 9mm vs. .45 caliber wars are so entertaining on the interwebs.

(By the way, Mozart was show-off. Johan Sebastian Bach was a real 9-5 working musician).

Paulus
 
(By the way, Mozart was show-off. Johan Sebastian Bach was a real 9-5 working musician).

Come on,Paulus.
Wolfgang put in a lot of 80 hour work weeks with no union scale.
And Johann didn't have to worry about those jumpy Viennese patrons that poor Mozart had to scribble away for every day.
No wonder he died at 36.
 
Okay, I'll concede that Wolfie was a genius psycho-musician.

But Bach actually raised a large family and survived some serious office politics while still teaching 12-year olds how to make music. That is, in many ways, a more heroic life than Mozart's.

Just sayin'...

I just kind of wonder whether Bach was a sheep or a sheep dog?

Paulus
 
I'm in a period of cool 50's and 60's jazz myself... Miles, 'Trane, Bird, and Brubeck...

I'm with you, I'm working on my second degree in Jazz Studies. Of course, you can't get half-way to where I am without understanding that Bach's music is responsible for the development of music theory, and therefore, well... any music that requires more than a tapping foot to listen to.

There are a couple of interesting stories of jazz musicians with guns.

Sidney Bechet, perhaps the greatest clarinetist who ever lived, had an unbelievable temper. This explains it a bit:
(Full story found here - http://www.nps.gov/jazz/historyculture/bechet.htm )

"Oh I know I can be mean- I know that. But not to the music"... Sidney Bechet
Trouble, it seems, sometimes lurked in the shadows during Bechet's life. Several altercations with police had previously plagued this jazz genius, once in New Orleans and once in Europe-which earned him a brief deportation back to the states. In 1930, Bechet's problems came to a boil during an incident in which the circumstances still remain cloudy. Whether the cause of the fracas was a dispute over chord changes or over a woman, neither scenario is unbelievable considering Bechet's temperament. What is not in doubt was the fact that Bechet wounded 3 people as a result of a gun duel and none of the victims were the intended target. Apparently Bechet's accuracy on his instrument did not extend to pistols. One of the wounded, another musician who was shot in the leg, publicly contemplated filing a lawsuit against Bechet upon his release from prison. Bechet, incensed upon learning of his plans, sent word back to drop the suit or watch out for his other leg. This aspect of Bechet's persona, a darker side with sometimes violent tendencies, somehow was revealed in his music as well. Listening to this jazz master one not only can hear the passionate soul of the blues, but a sense of risk also. Bechet was sometimes attracted to violent gangster figures and often this darker side of the man revealed itself through devilish twists and turns on the soprano. Bechet's ability to display a melancholy seriousness on his instrument remained as ever-present throughout his career as the handgun he often toted.

And THIS is one of my favorite stories ever (From allaboutjazz.com):

The history of jazz began with a gunshot. On New Year's Eve 1912, young Louis Armstrong, then singing for spare change with a street-corner quartet, "borrowed" a .38 revolver from one of the many "stepfathers" who regularly visited his mother. In keeping with a time-honored New Orleans tradition, he fired the gun in the air to welcome in the new year. A police detective standing nearby arrested Louis for illegally discharging a firearm, and he was quickly shipped off to the Colored Waif's Home, a reform school outside New Orleans. It was there that Louis received his first formal instruction in music and was given his first cornet by the school's director. Although he had played the instrument before and had already picked up some tips from legendary cornetist Bunk Johnson, it was at the Waif's Home that young Louis began to emerge as the prodigiously talented and visionary musician who would soon change the face of jazz and American popular music.


Jazz history is one of the greatest stories ever told in my opinion. Ken Burns documentary should be seen by everyone who can stand it! :D
 
Yeah he was a little hot tempered:

Bechet was born in New Orleans. From a young age, Bechet quickly mastered any musical instrument he encountered. Some New Orleanians remembered him as a cornet hot-shot in his youth. At first he decided on the clarinet as his main instrument, and Bechet remained one of jazz's greatest clarinetists for decades. The clarinetist Jimmie Noone, who became famous in his own right, took lessons from Bechet when the latter was only thirteen-years old. Despite his prowess on clarinet, Bechet is best remembered as the first great master of the soprano saxophone.

Bechet had experience playing in traveling shows even before he left New Orleans at the age of 20. Never long content in one place, he alternated using Chicago, New York, and Europe as his base of operations. Bechet was jailed[2] in Paris, France when a passerby was wounded during a pistol duel (which Bechet himself had instigated in an argument over chord changes); after serving jail time, Bechet was deported.

He continued recording and touring, though his success was intermittent.

Bechet relocated to France in 1950. He married Elisabeth Ziegler in Antibes, France in 1951.

Shortly before his death in Paris, Bechet dictated his poetic autobiography, Treat It Gentle. He died on his 62nd birthday.
 
Yeah he was a little hot tempered:

But holy hell could he play...

It's hilarious, you listen to some of those recordings, and you can TELL the trumpet is standing closer to the mic due to timbre, but Bechet just completely trumps the trumpeter :)rolleyes:) in regard to volume. The man's tone was insane. Clarinets are not supposed to be physically able to be played that loudly.

His tone on the quick version of "Maple Leaf Rag" will make your skin crawl.

Too bad the guy carried a gun, had a horrible temper, and was a lousy shot. :)
 
Okay, I'm down with the thread hijack because I'm persuaded I need to find some Bechet to listen to. I like good music...

However, in order to bring this back onto the High Road, you boys need to offer up the goods on what M. Bechet was packing in Paris when he was involved in a "duel."

Or, what Herr Bach might have kept at home for self defense.

Paulus
 
Campers, gotta say I can't dig those long-haired cats...
Bach was great in his century.

And then a few hundred years later came
McCartney, Dylan, Stills, Gabriel, Cobain, Stipe, Posford ...

But the question is, did any of them own guns?
 
So, ordinary law officers from the local Elector/Prince and soldiers would be sporting firearms? Or would they be peons having some short swords?

Were the match/flintlock gun users a special branch, like the artillery, in today's army? The "normal" police/soldiers were just out in large numbers with edged weapons?

European soldiers of this era were as professional as modern soldiers, probably better disciplined to accept losses.

Flintlock muskets were the prevalent means of violence by now. Bayonets were evolving from plug-type to modern lock-on designs. Swords and Pikes (spears) had already been abandoned on the Continent by regular forces.

Guards such as the local nightwatch and Gendarmerie would typically be armed with swords, halfpikes and carabins (carbines) -shortened muskets.
 
My vote has to go to Bach, though I love Mozart too. Especially the pipe-organ stuff. Tocatta and Fugue in D Minor. Haunted house music. Oh yeah.

When I was 18 or so (1972-73), I saw Virgil Fox a couple of times at the Academy of Music in Philadelphia. He was touring with a Rogers electronic "pipe organ". He blew the roof off of the place. And talk about bass. You gotta love those 16 Hz organ fundamentals. The frequency is so low, you can only hear it if you're a Blue Whale. We poor humans can only feel it shaking our innards. Oh yeah.

Virgil had quite a cult following of young people. He recorded an album at Fillmore East, and another at Fillmore West. I have both Fillmore "Heavy Organ" CDs. Highly recommended, but out of print. However, I just discovered this one.

http://www.tower.com/details/details.cfm?wapi=106543337.

If you don't already have one, get a sub-woofer. That's the only way to properly disturb the neighbors. :D
 
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Hmmm. Bach, Jazz and Firearms. My mother (a classical pianist by training) always referred to Bach as the Master of Counterpoint.

Ian Anderson's (of Jethro Tull fame) "cocktail jazz" song, Bouree, was a rework/intepretation of what JS Bach piece (anyone?). Ian Anderson also loved to do some handgun shooting. What handgun was his favorite when it was legal for him to own in Merry Olde? (IIRC he had to keep it over in France or Switz after the "Ban")

answers... fifth movement from Suite for Lute in E minor, BHP

Handel, Bach, Beethoven, Mozart. Mmmm. Founding fathers of the Western musical world.
 
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