just watched an old "COPS" episode

It was Philadelphia in 1991. Don't know the PPD's policies. Those officers might have been within policy or even under order by their supervisor to wait for more officers. Be very careful going off of just a few minutes of edited footage.

Not sure if I would rush in with that amount of information.

I very much doubt that I will ever need to worry about anyone ever breaking into my house.

I very much doubt that I will ever need to worry about anyone ever breaking into my house.

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No one needs to worry about it, but it is only very foolish to not consider and plan for it.

First rule of any confrontation is officer safety. Hard to help anybody if you get cut down storming into a house.

i didn't see the episode but from your description, i'd be very cautious entering the house if you know there's a gun already involved. i'd hate to get shot by the homeowner or kid.

but yeah, i'd like to think they'd try to get in there as soon as possible.

Cops are simply human. They are not super heros. At the end of the day, they want to go home to their families just as much as we do. If I'm in trouble, I won't hesitate to request their help, but I won't hold my breath until they get there.

I don't believe the word "cowardice" was quite necessary.

The suspect was scary. I saw it when it first aired and they showed it to us again when I went through the police academy. He was naked, out of his mind on something and bleeding from his gunshot wound. He actually charged the camera crew and there were five or six cops trying to hold him down. But he was naked and wet with blood. Like an eel.

In 1991 cops didn't have tasers or other tools like we do now. Also the tactics called for cops to establish a perimeter and wait. It's still that way, but there have been some changes since Colombine in 1999.

It isn't always perfect of course.

One of the officers temporarily retreats, while the other ducks down. They regain composure and hear even more ruckus, but remain stationed. They stay and listen to the rampage for over two miniutes before the attemp to act, just as back up arrives.

I ain't no cowboy, but if a kid is in danger, I'd go on up the stairs and face what turned out to be a naked, pcp addict on a rampage, and shot 'til my pistol went dry trying to save that kid and his dad.

Am I wrong in seeing the cowardace of these two cops?

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You also might end up killing the home owner, and saving the criminal. Don't assume you would be able to tell the difference.

The suspect was scary. I saw it when it first aired and they showed it to us again when I went through the police academy. He was naked, out of his mind on something and bleeding from his gunshot wound. He actually charged the camera crew and there were five or six cops trying to hold him down. But he was naked and wet with blood. Like an eel.

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In fact exactly like some homeowners would be who were just awakened in thier beds and shot by an intruder.

Not all criminals are going to be salivating or foaming from the mouth, or have a unique appearance.
In fact sometimes the criminal can be better dressed and appear more professional with a good demeanor than some guy that was just sleeping, perhaps after a long day, perhaps not cleaned up, and maybe after having a couple drinks before bed.

"Knowing" you would rush in and kill one person involved in a gun fight in a home where you don't know the occupants is silly. Do you really want to possibly kill the good guy and rescue the criminal?
That is why it is important for everyone to be ready to provide for thier own defense.

I have even seen a case where the criminal pretended to be the home owner and have the home owner arrested as a diversion so they could go back into "thier house" and escape out the back when police arrived.

I have seen a few stories on the news about criminals taking thier children (or a relative's kid) along to do burglaries, thefts etc. Some where the guy was not caught and they were showing survelience video.
They in fact do it often so they are less suspicious and seem like an "upstanding family man with his kid".

Tough call, but stories like this just reinforce my decision to arm myself. You're nuts to think that anyone, even a police officer, is going to risk his neck to save you (or even get there in time to save you in the first place). The only person responsible for YOU is YOU.

Dope

I agree with the thought that you do not know who or where the good guys are.

Dead good guys by you is worse than dead good guys by bad guy..........

Tony

Dope

Tough call, but stories like this just reinforce my decision to arm myself. You're nuts to think that anyone, even a police officer, is going to risk his neck to save you (or even get there in time to save you in the first place). The only person responsible for YOU is YOU.

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I agree with you in some aspect. I tell people in my city that there are 45,000 residents and even in the middle of a work day there are only eighteen cops working in my city. At night we go down to ten and there is allot of city to cover. So yes be ready to take care of yourself and yours. But I have put my hide on the line for strangers. Many times in the past 7.5 years. Many of my fellow officers have also done the same. We're not superheros and we do believe in going home and we try to use common sense tactics. But we do put it out there.

But I have put my hide on the line for strangers. Many times in the past 7.5 years. Many of my fellow officers have also done the same. We're not superheros and we do believe in going home and we try to use common sense tactics. But we do put it out there.

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Nothing there to argue about...................

Tony

An amusing episode. Naked stoner in a barbershop...

Tough call, but stories like this just reinforce my decision to arm myself. You're nuts to think that anyone, even a police officer, is going to risk his neck to save you (or even get there in time to save you in the first place). The only person responsible for YOU is YOU.

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Good advice.

Where I live now, I believe that the police would LIKE to protect the public at large. I don't for one second believe that for the most part they have the ability. They might stop somebody after the fact, but if I rely upon them to defend me from an immediate threat of lethal force, I might as well eat my own gun. It's simply not fair to expect them to protect you. Assuming that EVERYTHING goes 100% right with 911 and the police response, you can be stabbed to death many times over in the FASTEST time it would take for the police to just show up, nevermind figure out exactly what's going on and where you are.

I'm from Chicago. Not only do I not believe the Chicago PD has the ability to protect individuals, or even the desire, much of the time they display a CONTRARY desire. I'd as soon call the Black Gangster Disciples as the Chicago PD.

I watch a lot of Cops as it's one of the few shows on tv I can sometimes stand. I am interested in the way tactics have changed in the last ten to fifteen years or so while watching those episodes. Cops today put up with much less and there is much less talking done before cuffs are on. I've seen the episode in question and was wondering why they didn't do more, but in reality the guy was at the top of a small stairway and there wasn't much more they could have done. In addition it took four or five guys to get him down and cuffed. Even one fo the cops mentioned how slippery he was and he was a bigger guy as well.

I agree with you in some aspect. I tell people in my city that there are 45,000 residents and even in the middle of a work day there are only eighteen cops working in my city. At night we go down to ten and there is allot of city to cover. So yes be ready to take care of yourself and yours. But I have put my hide on the line for strangers. Many times in the past 7.5 years. Many of my fellow officers have also done the same. We're not superheros and we do believe in going home and we try to use common sense tactics. But we do put it out there.

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I understand what you're saying, I guess I should have worded my post a little better. It should be more along the lines "It's nuts to EXPECT or RELY on anyone (even LEO) to be there or be willing to save your hide in all cases." Again, assuming that help even arrives in time. Or that you would even have time to call for help in the first place.

I'm preaching to the choir, I know.

Dope

Rushing in being a hero will often get you killed. You really need to make every effort to quickly evaluate the situation and or wait for back up If a gun is involved.

Based on the information in this thread it sounded like the responding officers where in a sever tactical disadvantage and took some extra time to formulate a plan of action least likely to get them or an innocent killed.

A shot is heard, and the dad picks up the phone and says "I shot him". The police arrive to the call and immediately hear a loud ruckus, they walk in further, then hear a gunshot. One of the officers temporarily retreats, while the other ducks down. They regain composure and hear even more ruckus, but remain stationed. They stay and listen to the rampage for over two miniutes before the attemp to act, just as back up arrives.

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Ever been in a gunfight? It's not as easy to tell who the bad guy is as Hollywood makes it look. If this is the episode I remember, the officers took enough time to wait for backup but not an excessive amount of time. We have a term for rushing in without backup: "Tombstone Courage."

I think we all understand cops are bulletproof super heroes. Most of us probably also understand that things go a lot differently when you're there and it's happening to you than they when you're watching a video of an event. I'm not a coward but if somebody shoots at me I'm going to duck, because I'm not stupid either. We also understand there are only so many police to go around a given city, they can't be everywhere at once and frankly we wouldn't want that because if that isn't it what is the definition of a police state?

Here's what gets me. We all know, including the cops on this board from the replies I've seen, that the super hero angle just isn't reality. So why in the heck is that always the assumption in just about any other circumstance than one like described in the original post, Colombine, Virginia Tech, whatever? We get everything from simple chestbeating like "thin blue line between order and chaos!" to assumptions that only police have the expertise to own or use firearms to special laws and privileges to benefit LEO's over other civilians, etc. I realize it isn't coming from every LEO and probably not from many on this board but yes indeed much of it does come from LEO's. A lot of it comes from politicians and the media as well. It's that the suggested expectations are not meeting reality that is the issue for me. If it was simply a matter of "the police will do their best and you will be allowed to do your best" many conflicts could be eliminated. If I was a cop I wouldn't try to be a superhero because humans just aren't all that super but I sure would be working aggressively in my sphere of influence to curtail any playing at super hero at the expense of other citizens that may be going on among those in law enforcement around me. From another thread it sounds like at least one LEO member here does try to do just that.

It's all about everybody being equal under the law and not getting in the way of our taking care of ourselves.

"Law" and "law"

The Almighty-Nine-In-Black have made the pronouncement that "...the Constitution does not say what the law is; WE decide what the Constitution says and what the law is." (Or words to that effect.) In view of this, and the fact that there will never be enough Law Enforcement Officers to fill all the needs for their services, this quote seems less important :

So, if YOU get in my way of taking care of myself, all other things being equal, if I am the quicker draw AND better shot, then I am The Law, for that moment, and in that case. "Everybody" will never be equal. Different classes and sub-groups will always want more of the cobbler for their own group. And they are prepared to take it, to which I say "Molon Labe!" Is that not why YOU and I are armed?? I may have misunderstood my inserted quote above, but my response to it is sincere. ML.

1. Stairway = fatal funnel. Bad juju.
2. Shots fired = take cover and return fire if threat is visible (rule 4)

I hear shots fired, I'm at least crouching and making myself smaller if I can't get behind something solid. Running up the stairs into an unknown room with unknown suspects and occupants into the sound of gunfire is not tactically sound.

I love the mardi gras episodes!