Should gun modifications be illegal? Are Police Jack-Booted thugs?

Calling the police jack-booted thugs for doing their job is unfair.

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The term JBT is generally limited to ATF agents and their actions in the past few decades makes that a legitimate description. Their abuses were so bad that the entire agency was almost disbanded and their "jurisdiction" handed over to the FBI.

laws are laws right wrong or indiffrent. Breaking them results in even more loss of freedom. If you want to change somthing vote for some one that can change the laws.

I have to admit I agree with Sans on some points,he goes to extremes though .
Using you silencer comment as a example, Why should you have to pay for the
privilege of having a silencer? What danger to the general community will there be if you own a silencer? you've I assume, already passed the background checks in order to own firearms. How does paying an extra "tax" make the community any safer? Passing the original background check should be enough.

I think people believe there are a set of laws not designed to protect anyone or anything, but are simply there because some pol wants control.

The belief breeds disrespect for law, those who write them and those who enforce them.

To change a law you must simply challenge it in front of a jury.

IIRC if the jury agrees that the Law itself is not Acceptable the case can be thrown out.

How does paying an extra "tax" make the community any safer?

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it doesn't see word "tax" thats all it has to do with anything, oh yeah and now you can be "inspected" at any time.

I don't break the laws just because it would be convenient for me to do so. If this was an important enough fight for me to be undertaken I'd do what I could to make every effort to change the public's view and eventually the laws of the land. If I can't do that I'll still obey the law because that's what a civilized society does.

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I suppose we should be thankful our forefathers were barbarians, or we'd still be trying to redress our grievances with England.

oh yeah and now you can be "inspected" at any time.

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No you can't. That is a myth that people unfimiliar with NFA items continue to pass around.

Expecting individual policemen to ignore the bulk of the law and only enforce what they personally felt was moral would be a recipe for disaster.

I think we can all agree that there exist laws in this country today which are immoral and/or counterproductive to the common good. But I bet we'd have a hard time agreeing on the set of laws that fit into this category.

Humans have been trying to come up with a universally accepted yardstick of morality and ethics for centuries, even millenia. So far it's been unsuccessful. While there are some acts that everyone agrees are socially unacceptable, like murder, there are far more that there is nothing like a consensus on. Drug laws are a prime example.

But there has to be a consistent yardstick for the government to use. As such, compromise is inevitable. It follows from this that there will be people who believe that certain laws in existence are unjust and should be changed. This is why we have a system in place for these laws to be examined, reconsidered, and changed if the consensus exists.

If the people we entrust with the enforcement of these laws are not required to abide by any common yardstick, then what's the point of making the laws in the first place? If an individual policeman is given a free reign to disregard enforcement of laws he disagrees with, then what's to stop him from enforcing laws that don't even exist? Maybe our policeman feels that guns ar eveil and should be confiscated. His arrests might not ever result in a conviction, but there sure would be a deleterous effect on the population.

So maybe we decide that we have to only allow people to enforce the law if they agree with our common yardstick. Good luck finding anyone who's in 100% agreement. So what's an acceptable deviation from our yardstick? Uh-oh, now we've got to come to another compromise.

The police wield power over the citizens, and must always do so if we expect them to enforce anything. But if they're not held to a universally agreed-upon standard, then the result will be anarchy.

IIRC if the jury agrees that the Law itself is not Acceptable the case can be thrown out.

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That is hinted at in the 6th Amendment.

I have never been called to jury duty (not sure why, I've been registered to vote for 30 years) but a guy i work with was on jury duty recently. I asked him about the instructions they were given regarding "finder of facts" and "finder of law". He said it was strange that I would use those terms, because they were told that they were only the finders of fact, and the judge was the finder of law -- which is not true, of course. Those are their primary roles, but the judge can set aside a jury's verdict when the facts do not support it (not sure if this only applies to civil cases or also criminal cases), and the jury has the authority to disregard the law and acquit because it thinks the law is unjust or somehow doesn't apply to the case. But as far as I know, this doesn't set a legal precedent.

If your cost is that you are willing to break the laws that the majority agree on then it shouldn't come as a surprise that you'll lose some freedoms.

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When laws are unjust, it's our duty to oppose them. Some of us can be more active in this than others. Some have more courage than others. There are a variety of means by which we can participate.

It used to be legal to own other people. It used to be legal to make 9 y/o kids work 12 hour days in the factory. It used to be legal to beat your wife. It's currently illegal for me to buy a beer after 2:00am.

We've had this discussion before. Some say that a LEO who upholds unjust laws is a "JBT" or somesuch. I tend to agree. In fact, I agree strongly.

I gotta say, I'm with Sans on this.

What you are talking about is Jury Nullification. While I totally agree with the concept, I would not be willing to bet 10 years at club Fed (per charge) that I could convince a jury that the NFA should be ignored.

Hi Eric,

laws are laws right wrong or indiffrent. Breaking them results in even more loss of freedom. If you want to change somthing vote for some one that can change the laws.

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Our Constitution is not set up to 'vote out' a law that violates it. Legislatures are designed to overwhelm the Consititution and the courts are designed to get rid of those laws that go beyond the powers granted to the government. The only way for the courts to do their jobs is for the people to willfully exercise the rights they have retained in spite of the whims and whimsy of those that pass laws. There is a technical term for people that say 'this law is wrong but it is the law and civilized people obey the law.' The high road forbids me being specific on what that term is.

Selena

Hi Native,

Calling the police jack-booted thugs for doing their job is unfair.

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As long as the bulk of LEO's defend the arrogant right walkers, they have earn the title. They have only themselves to blame.

Selena

There is a technical term for people that say 'this law is wrong but it is the law and civilized people obey the law.

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Though not technical, Sheeple comes to mind.

The good, the bad and the ugly. Ala Clint Eastwood - grin. Dirty Harry too!

Hello and nice to meet you.

I think that there are GOOD and BAD people in this Republic and ALL around the world.

Christians, Jews, Muslims, Hindus, etc. - GOOD and BAD in all of them. Good and bad in ALL colors, sexes, ages, socio/economic groups, parts of this country, pro gun groups, pro liberty issues, some political parties, Americans, non Americans, nationalites - it depends on the person - INDIVIDUAL. Etc., bla and bla.

I think that there are GOOD and BAD in ALL PROFESSIONS too. YOU name the professions... good and bad in ALL of them - it is the INDIVIDUAL.

Do I think that some professions have people in them that should NOT be in their profession? YES!!!

That goes for ANY profession... including some who are in power in the District of Criminals too! Republicans, Democrats, Independents, Libertarians, etc. GOOD and bad in them too.

The FEDERAL goobmint including SOME alphabet agencies have OVER stepped their bounds just like the man who lives in a white colored house in D.C. His puppet masters and that includes CONGRESS too. BOTH political parties... stick to the basics.

KISS method = keep it simple stupid. Late husband's favorite military line among ALL others in his life. My favorite line in any part of my life.

THEIR JOB in the government is the same as any other oath - to defend and uphold the Constitution and, in some cases - oaths, to defend the Republic from foreign and domestic enemies. SERVE the public and keep the peace. THEY all work for us!

YOU have jack booted thugs in white collars like Enron people who screwed their own. WHITE collar crime is just as bad as in ANY other CRIME and as I said you have JBTs there too. Only some people don't SEE it that way. Whatever trips their trigger, eh? SOME are control freaks like in the NWO globalist crowd in the D and R parties... same deal. So you have more laws and so forth and stupid new Patriot Acts and Homeland INsecurity deals. MORE powers and more hired help! UGH. So since CONGRESS did not bother reading what the H they signed... you have agencies and LE who have to follow THOSE NEW LAWS and rules/regs. It is the law you know. Then you have the types that think that the Nanny State will be the end all. Gotta maka anoder law TYPES. UGH. More laws - more to UPHOLD, eh?

My late GREAT Grandfather was a NY policeman killed in action aka ON DUTY. I was told it was a robbery where that happened.

I have had people in LE in my background, as close friends - super close, back on the east coast, farm/lake country, etc. Do I think that all are perfect around the country? NO. Good and bad in all.

Same goes for the military, lawyers, doctors, nurses, teachers, clerks, trash men, house cleaners, accountants, authors, chefs, managers in all kinds of jobs, machinists, gun makers, construction people, etc. Bla and bla.

My guns are the same now as when I bought them. Same as with my late husband. My groom/husband has some fancier, more expensive, custom guns plus his regular guns. They are LEGAL.

I happen to THINK that ALL firearms should be LEGAL no matter what the TOOL/OBJECT 'looks' like. That is MY opinion. It is not the BATF and others opinion. ALL of my firearms were bought NIB - legal. Same as with my late husband and he had some older ones too. Same as with my groom/husband.

Since I think that all TOOLS/OBJECTS = firearms or anything else should be legal - THAT may make me an extremist in my VIEWS. However I obey the stupid laws and voice my OPINION. Personally... there are NOT many things that I want/need to own in firearms since I LOVE what I own/shoot. However if Jane or John Doe wants to buy/own any TOOL including a gun... I think that he/she should be ALLOWED to own it.

I think that some of those agencies and their new/more powerful POWERS should be abolished too. THINK of the Treasury Department giving the FED more power and the Federal Reserve is NOT even federal!!! Geesh. I see NO need for many of those agencies including the BATF and tons of other stupid agencies and more powers. That may make me extreme in MY VIEWS. Oh well. MY opinion.

I think that PEACE OFFICERS and good police or ANY other profession should stick to doing their job.

I don't like it when some of them are wannabe military or like those mercenaries - Blackwater, etc.

Another thing is this... as a former WIDOW, over 30 years married to him, of a former military man who served OVER 20 years from Vietnam, around the world, etc. with the USN-Destroyer and AIR NG Fighter Wing along with his NON government job... STOP CALLING people and citizens - Civilians!

ONLY the MILITARY should be allowed to CALL NON MILITARY PEOPLE civilians. That really TICKS me off. ALL of us INCLUDING LE or any other profession or people are CIVILIANS except for MILITARY. NOT directed to the O.P. but to ALL people who think that it is OK.

One of my BEST friends of my late husband and mine was a Chief Deputy right below the SHERIFF in our rural county. He had a CLUE as most of the police and deputies that I know. HIS kids are in LE and EMT work. He and others were on our VOLUNTEER FD/EMT departments too. ONE of his KIDS teaches SWAT and is in SWAT now. Another son is on it or going to be on it too.

Now... your second question is not hard to answer since there are GOOD and BAD people in ALL professions. NO, not all police are JBTs or any other slang name.

Good and bad in all. The KISS method.

There you go. Have a lovely evening.

Peace and liberty,

Catherine - Real Name
Montana - Real Place

To the OP-I totally agree wth you, with 1 exception:

If your cost is that you are willing to break the laws that the majority agree on then it shouldn't come as a surprise that you'll lose some freedoms.

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Sadly, many of our laws (not just gun laws), DON'T have the approval/support of the majority, of the population.BUT, I still dont think that means we can just ignore them (unless they become so severe and tyranical, or OBVIOUSLY just wrong (New Orleans confisctations are a good example) we have little choice to do something else within the law), and I cannot fault LEO's for enforcing laws that dont fit the obviously illegal, tyranical, unconstitutional, etc scenarios mentioned above.

I'm not a huge fan of LEO's or our current govt (and I dont mean Bush, I mean from LONG before him) due to some past mistreatent( I have been punched in the face twice Detroit city cops, simply because I wouldnt confess to what they wanted (something I was innocent of), or say what they wanted), but I still feel the VAST majority are simply trying to do good, help people, and do the right thing.Thier job is to enforce the law (within obvious exceptions), not write or interpret them. Those failings fall on the legislators and judges.

The problem lies with fedeal and state politicians who pass laws knowing full well, the majority of the population does not ageree and want them passed, yet then in other laws, ignores enforement when the majority wants them enforced.

I FULLY support all LEO's who do a dangerous, difficult job, and do it well, and who are willing to think, not just blindly follow (and therefore ignore obviousl illegal orders-see New Orleans again for an example).Just like when I was in the military, you are to obey orders without question or hesitaton, but you are also morally, and legally required to refuse to obey what are obvoiusly unlawful orders.If you dont, dont be surprised at what happens.Just like those who, regardless of orders, decide to act illegally, knowingly. ie.-crooked cops who assault, rape, rob, steal, etc, same for soldiers doing the same.And anyone who knows of an LEO or soildier who follows obvious unlawful orders, or is violating lawful ones, or is commiting crimes, is just as bad as them, if they dont stop them and turn them in.Ignoring the scumbags within your ranks makes you just as bad as them, and you desere the most severe punishment allowed.

PS

PS:

There are some police and others in POWER who are against the UNconstitutional laws, new rules/regs, the JBTs who did those THUG LIKE ACTIONS.

SOME, very few of them, have spoken up and/or lost their jobs by speaking up. (Same as in the military.) SOME spoke up AFTER they got their 20 or 30 years in and they were SAFE with their retirement package, bennies, etc. Some went into golden parachute deals in OTHER professions too.

Respectfully yours,

Catherine

Law is fundamentally a set of rules by which all people should live, with the primary function of said rules being to prevent and/or reduce the occurrence of oppression. In a perfect world there would be anarchy, in other words, an utter lack of law. But because there are evil people who would do others harm, laws are created (and justice systems and police departments implemented) in an attempt to prevent such evil people from harming others if possible, and punish them if prevention is impossible.

The problem is that evil can and does exist within the legal system, and thus gradually becomes a tool of evil as time goes on. That's why "the Tree of Liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."

YOU are correct about the TREE of LIBERTY.

This is true too:

Power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely.
Lord Acton

You have abuses of POWER in ALL professions too. In some cases it is just a pain in the butt, in other cases it hurts your finances, in some cases it will get you injured and/or killed, etc.

THINK of WACO and RUBY RIDGE. Think about all of those other 'power' incidents.

Yes, peace officers should be just that and obey orders/laws that pertain to the Constitution and other basic/ordinary laws. Unfortunately they have to 'follow orders' be it RIGHT or WRONG. I think that they should NOT always follow the WRONG orders but hey, I am an old fashioned lady. Learn from history... you know the quote.

They have a hard job to do and I respect MOST of them. The others... I do not respect.

Disclaimer: I have never had a police problem or even a parking ticket @ 57.5 years old.

Respectfully yours,

Catherine

I once heard the saying,

"Nearly all men can stand adversity, but if you want to test a man's character, give him power."
- Abraham Lincoln

That says it all.

You should be able to modify your guns at will, unfortunately you can't and are not likely to re-gain the legal ability to do so. As for JBT, most LEO's are great, a few are not, and some are JBTs. Unfortunately there are those on both sides of the argument that assign the status on either end of the spectrum to ALL LEOs.

True too. I added more to my one post just now.

Catherine