New Chinese Firearms
- Thread starter Rifleman 173
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Nola wrote:
Hold up a second. Why exactly do we WANT to get on board with China, or nudge them in the right direction?
I'd much rather keep my own nation's interest ahead of another's interest.
We all complain about the high price of commodities, raw materials, and energy. Yet, in a lot of ways, this is our own chickens coming home to roost.
I remember the late 1990's in my industry. All we talked about was investing in China. The analysts would say that we would reap HUGE investment returns by investing in China and helping them modernized and move into the 1st world.
Guys, here's a newsflash for you.
When a 3rd world country becomes a 1st world company, they want the same things a 1st world company wants. And they typically don't move backwards-- only forward.
In a world of absolutely finite resources, any additional consumption becomes competition for you. The supply and demand curve necessatates that prices go up.
A quick search--even on here-- will highlight where a LARGE percentage of raw materials, industrial concrete, heavy industrial machinery, and fuel is going.
I may sound cold, but I couldn't care less. I prefer that we place our own interest ahead of others. I'd expect any other nation to do the same. I've said this before, and I stand by it-- Economics is a form of warfare. It's just fought with handshakes and contracts.
Let China take care of themselves. This isn't about any dislike of China within me. It is about taking care of our own.
So, I've no interest in aiding any other nation develop a better weapon that may well be used against US soldiers at some point in the future.
-- John
Hold up a second. Why exactly do we WANT to get on board with China, or nudge them in the right direction?
I'd much rather keep my own nation's interest ahead of another's interest.
We all complain about the high price of commodities, raw materials, and energy. Yet, in a lot of ways, this is our own chickens coming home to roost.
I remember the late 1990's in my industry. All we talked about was investing in China. The analysts would say that we would reap HUGE investment returns by investing in China and helping them modernized and move into the 1st world.
Guys, here's a newsflash for you.
When a 3rd world country becomes a 1st world company, they want the same things a 1st world company wants. And they typically don't move backwards-- only forward.
In a world of absolutely finite resources, any additional consumption becomes competition for you. The supply and demand curve necessatates that prices go up.
A quick search--even on here-- will highlight where a LARGE percentage of raw materials, industrial concrete, heavy industrial machinery, and fuel is going.
I may sound cold, but I couldn't care less. I prefer that we place our own interest ahead of others. I'd expect any other nation to do the same. I've said this before, and I stand by it-- Economics is a form of warfare. It's just fought with handshakes and contracts.
Let China take care of themselves. This isn't about any dislike of China within me. It is about taking care of our own.
So, I've no interest in aiding any other nation develop a better weapon that may well be used against US soldiers at some point in the future.
-- John
BattleChimp Potemkin
Member
Alot of ethonocentrism in this thread. High Road, huh? The Chinese arent "innovators", they tend to "copy" other's designs and then add their own concepts according to their cultural needs/ideals. The same goes for the Japanese. They simply saw the high velocity/low mass round concept, then the bullpup, then viola, they created a rifle. Lightweight plastics, metals and composites are the rage in the military sense. This is not something against the Asians, but they are NOT innovators in as such, they are very good at improving or reverse engineering stuff. Its a good trait to have at least in the Chinese sense b/c of an isolationism that can occur with communism (this is being challenged however with an increasingly capitalist economy prevalent there).
Cheap looking? High Points? Need I remind y'all of the Mattell guns our boys used to hump in the Nam? Beauty is in the eyes of the beholder. As long as the weapon goes bang and hits the target, that is more than most militaries can ask for (just ask our guys overseas now). Hey, the Chinese even have the Gobi (is it Gobi?) desert to test their stuff in.
Their country is experiencing a political science anomaly. Communist (modified) with an increasingly capitalist economic system. We may call their weapons technology "backwards" or "awkward", but just think, they are copying what is in the world's military NOW. High velocity, low mass rounds, high round capacity magazines, bullpup stocks (before someone says, no one is using those bull pups now, shut up you troll. I will simply say: British).
Another 5 years and the Chinese will be a force to be reckoned with. People think of the Chinese as "over there" or "backwards". They have the man power, a complex political structure, lots of social strife (right now), with no outlet to release social tension. Powder keg for expansionist policies. The worst thing a president can do is claim he/she has a two China policy (PRC and ROC). Taiwan has been "begging" for a Chinese mainland "reintroduction".
Keep in mind: We have our eyes set to the east, keeping our minds and hearts in Iraq. However, the world is multifaceted. Read the Asian section of news AS WELL AS the Middle Eastern section. This is not fear mongering, however, the US is quickly becoming out stripped in many senses. This is a wake up call. Lets get America movin again! We make laws that restrict our weapons development (AWB) and dont really realize it. The more money gun companies have coming in (not just govt, but also civilian) they can fund weapons research and make the "next big thing" in weapons technology. The govt tends to fund things at the last moment and is very fickle with their money/interest (look at weapons development during/before/after the world wars). There was a thread on that that was exceedingly interesting, until it became a whats better post.
Cheap looking? High Points? Need I remind y'all of the Mattell guns our boys used to hump in the Nam? Beauty is in the eyes of the beholder. As long as the weapon goes bang and hits the target, that is more than most militaries can ask for (just ask our guys overseas now). Hey, the Chinese even have the Gobi (is it Gobi?) desert to test their stuff in.
Their country is experiencing a political science anomaly. Communist (modified) with an increasingly capitalist economic system. We may call their weapons technology "backwards" or "awkward", but just think, they are copying what is in the world's military NOW. High velocity, low mass rounds, high round capacity magazines, bullpup stocks (before someone says, no one is using those bull pups now, shut up you troll. I will simply say: British).
Another 5 years and the Chinese will be a force to be reckoned with. People think of the Chinese as "over there" or "backwards". They have the man power, a complex political structure, lots of social strife (right now), with no outlet to release social tension. Powder keg for expansionist policies. The worst thing a president can do is claim he/she has a two China policy (PRC and ROC). Taiwan has been "begging" for a Chinese mainland "reintroduction".
Keep in mind: We have our eyes set to the east, keeping our minds and hearts in Iraq. However, the world is multifaceted. Read the Asian section of news AS WELL AS the Middle Eastern section. This is not fear mongering, however, the US is quickly becoming out stripped in many senses. This is a wake up call. Lets get America movin again! We make laws that restrict our weapons development (AWB) and dont really realize it. The more money gun companies have coming in (not just govt, but also civilian) they can fund weapons research and make the "next big thing" in weapons technology. The govt tends to fund things at the last moment and is very fickle with their money/interest (look at weapons development during/before/after the world wars). There was a thread on that that was exceedingly interesting, until it became a whats better post.
Art Eatman
Moderator In Memoriam
Thanks for the video. Looks like some serious war-toys. Everything I've read about the Chinese military over these last several years indicates they are putting together a world-class system. One thing for sure; they can afford to. Budget surpluses beat budget deficits, every time.
Reading through this thread, I'd say some folks are way behind on what's been going on in China these last fifteen years. The math is easy, when you start looking at an economic growth rate of around ten percent per year over that fifteen years. China's GDP is expected to be #1 in the world by 2040, if not before. The rate things are going, it looks like "before". It oughta mean something to any observer that China is the largest market for Mercedes-Benz, Rolex and Gucci.
Chinese ever-increasing consumption of copper and oil have contributed to the higher costs of our own ammunition. They're using half the world's annual supply of iron and steel, and the video illustrates where a portion of that is going.
Reading through this thread, I'd say some folks are way behind on what's been going on in China these last fifteen years. The math is easy, when you start looking at an economic growth rate of around ten percent per year over that fifteen years. China's GDP is expected to be #1 in the world by 2040, if not before. The rate things are going, it looks like "before". It oughta mean something to any observer that China is the largest market for Mercedes-Benz, Rolex and Gucci.
Chinese ever-increasing consumption of copper and oil have contributed to the higher costs of our own ammunition. They're using half the world's annual supply of iron and steel, and the video illustrates where a portion of that is going.
BattleChimp Potemkin
Member
Art-
100% correct. I do like how you used the term "portion" of it. So many of the local gunshops here claim the pricing (If I remember correctly, gunshop owners dont have politics, they have policies, something like that) of ammunition and components is b/c ALL of the materials are going into the chinese war machina. I dont believe this one bit. There are hundreds of hydroelectric projects going on over there, not to mention other electric and electronic improvements to the country's infrastructure. The country has been behind, but when you have such a large country, it takes quite some time to get the entire thing modernized.
China+oil: This has been a revolution of epic proportions over there. The change from coal to oil (at least power generation) and the addition of more and more personally owned automobiles has their oil consumption skyrocketing. Chinese and American businesses are going to be going nuts over one another in a few years to keep up with the demand that is looming on the horizon.
Many people posted objections to working with China. China's human rights and government policy has remained unchanged for decades, yet now, and only now is it fashionalbe to object to it. Yes they are communists and abort children and run their country with an iron fist. However, they are changing their policy. The world market has inserted capitalism into their bloodstream and its a matter of time. The younger generation of China realizes the issues in their country and are attempting to remedy it (govt change and protest). Leave that one to us whipper snappers.
Personally though, I would like to see what the Chinese use for heavier equipment, such as aircraft and vehicles. I heard somewhere that they tend to buy most of their aircraft and ships, but not too sure. Anyone have info on this? I know they have their own tank series .(check those out, pretty mean lookin, we need some cav boys tell us what they think of those).
100% correct. I do like how you used the term "portion" of it. So many of the local gunshops here claim the pricing (If I remember correctly, gunshop owners dont have politics, they have policies, something like that) of ammunition and components is b/c ALL of the materials are going into the chinese war machina. I dont believe this one bit. There are hundreds of hydroelectric projects going on over there, not to mention other electric and electronic improvements to the country's infrastructure. The country has been behind, but when you have such a large country, it takes quite some time to get the entire thing modernized.
China+oil: This has been a revolution of epic proportions over there. The change from coal to oil (at least power generation) and the addition of more and more personally owned automobiles has their oil consumption skyrocketing. Chinese and American businesses are going to be going nuts over one another in a few years to keep up with the demand that is looming on the horizon.
Many people posted objections to working with China. China's human rights and government policy has remained unchanged for decades, yet now, and only now is it fashionalbe to object to it. Yes they are communists and abort children and run their country with an iron fist. However, they are changing their policy. The world market has inserted capitalism into their bloodstream and its a matter of time. The younger generation of China realizes the issues in their country and are attempting to remedy it (govt change and protest). Leave that one to us whipper snappers
.Personally though, I would like to see what the Chinese use for heavier equipment, such as aircraft and vehicles. I heard somewhere that they tend to buy most of their aircraft and ships, but not too sure. Anyone have info on this? I know they have their own tank series .(check those out, pretty mean lookin, we need some cav boys tell us what they think of those).
After seeing the "discipline" and "professionalism" of Chinese troops firsthand when they are supposed to be at their best, I feel that the Chinese infantry's ability to project force is at best unintentionally overstated and at worst intentionally exaggerated by Western military sources.
In other words, the Chinese have the numbers but not the men.
In other words, the Chinese have the numbers but not the men.
Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow
member
- Joined
- Nov 14, 2007
- Messages
- 13,146
Hmmm, a bullpup SAW - interesting. Laser dazzling weapon for crowd control - tee hee - wonder if it works: "ohhhh, look at all the pretty lights - dazzling - I think I'll stop setting this fire and just go home and watch TV now instead."
Oohrah
Member
Gee, ever wonder why this country stopped the import of ammo and
firearms? Still own a Norinco SKS and recall their ammo was much
better than Wolf! Also always remember Korea when poorly armed
and equiped Divisons pretty well went were they wanted by sheer
bodies. Not sure if properly equiped, there may not have been a
North/South line
firearms? Still own a Norinco SKS and recall their ammo was much
better than Wolf! Also always remember Korea when poorly armed
and equiped Divisons pretty well went were they wanted by sheer
bodies. Not sure if properly equiped, there may not have been a
North/South line
Art Eatman
Moderator In Memoriam
jlbraun, they're plenty good for anybody they're likely to go to war against. They have no need to invade us; all they gotta to is buy us. Lordy, they're holding over a trillion bucks' worth of our paper, already.
Other economic clout includes a lock on the world's supply of rare-earth minerals, the lanthanides, without which you're not gonna make a lot of today's electronic equipment. Measuring instrumentation for power plants, e.g.; beaucoup other stuff. They've also been our main source for sulfuric acid, the world's most-used chemical.
Learning Mandarin and Cantonese would not be unwise, for one's economic future...
Other economic clout includes a lock on the world's supply of rare-earth minerals, the lanthanides, without which you're not gonna make a lot of today's electronic equipment. Measuring instrumentation for power plants, e.g.; beaucoup other stuff. They've also been our main source for sulfuric acid, the world's most-used chemical.
Learning Mandarin and Cantonese would not be unwise, for one's economic future...
Glock Glockler
Member
Does anyone have any info on their 5.8mm pistol round?
thanks
thanks
Funderb
Member
JWarren-
Our nations interest very much is the progress of other nations.
Our isolationist policy that you are throwing around here have
only EVER preceded more war.
Our nations interest very much is the progress of other nations.
Our isolationist policy that you are throwing around here have
only EVER preceded more war.
patentmike
Member
Prototypes, or in service? I was there last summer and saw the people's police with AK's, armored car security with riot guns, and fleetingly, a plain clothes railroad policeman carrying a Makarov or something similar. Of course, except for the armored car guys, these types of troops would probably be the last to get updated equipment.
esmith
Member
It doesn't matter if they look cheap or goofy, they will still kill you. Which is the point of them.
casio02478
Member
- Joined
- Oct 15, 2006
- Messages
- 160
What surprised me is that there is so much fear of the "yellow peril" on this site. What happened to THR??? What people tend to forget is that the China through out history tended to be one of the less aggressive world powers. Although they will aggressively defend land that they consider to be theirs from a historic perspective ie. Tibet and Twain. They will not take land that is historically not. They have a concept of a greater or traditional china and they want to rebuild it. Outside of that they have no interest in territorial gains. Look up the India-China war. The Chinese withdrew of their own accord even when they could have clearly grabbed more land and had the Indian army on the run. While it is true that china is not a democratic country, it is never the less a stable global player with transparent goals. A country we can deal with and co-exist with. People please do some search before letting the world know that your perspective on China is based on 1950s Bugs Bunny Cartoon. In the end there will be no Mongol horde coming across the horizon into your homes.
As to the quality of the items, look around your houses. I bet there is a lot of stuff that are made in china. Sure they are cheap but they just plain work. Their firearms are they same. For example their type 95 is not the best assault rifle around but it goes boom every time I pulled the trigger. Are they as good as American made weapons? Heck no, but I still don’t want to stand in front of one.
As to the quality of the items, look around your houses. I bet there is a lot of stuff that are made in china. Sure they are cheap but they just plain work. Their firearms are they same. For example their type 95 is not the best assault rifle around but it goes boom every time I pulled the trigger. Are they as good as American made weapons? Heck no, but I still don’t want to stand in front of one.
Funderb wrote:
JWarren-
I know all the economic theories about manufacturing diversification and how it can create wealth for both all nations involved.
And I tend to agree. Except that our "Economic Laws" were written in an age where commodity scarcity was not as pronounced as it is in this market....
Laws have to be re-evaluated based upon economic realities of that market.
Anyone who believes that Economics is NOT war is naive. Historically, wars are about control, territory, and wealth more than anything else.
They are fought at the negotiation table with smiles and handshakes and only fought with bullets when an impasse' has been reached.
Exactly why would a national interest policy lead to wars. I'll tell you why-- because someone doesn't get what they want.
So the choice is either a policy of caving in and appeasement or one where ground is stood for our national interest.
It amazes me that so many are unwilling to actually CARE about our own national interest or thing we have the RIGHT to advocate it.
I want to be clear on this. I don't believe that whether a course of action would lead to conflict should be a deciding factor in the decision-making process.
If a course is correct and right, it is correct and right. I am willing to accept what comes from that as opposed to capitulating based upon fear.
There's really no point in debating this. Some are willing to place national interest first, and some are not. I am of the former.
Many will debate that nature of global economics and come to different conclusions.
I've listened to TOO many Economists in my life and understand that we are speaking of theories only. Most Economists belong in an academic setting and are unable to operate in practice.
Don't believe me? Well, I had a client who was an Economics professor who only invested in Closed-End Mutual Funds because they always traded at a discount to their "Book Value." He was absolutely convinced that he could not lose money in them because the "Break-up' Value was greater that the market price. Never mind that his investments never made money. You see-- it fit his theory, but didn't fit reality.
On a side note related to the above story-- the best definition of the value of a security is:
What the NEXT fool will pay for it. It really is that simple.
-- John
JWarren-
I know all the economic theories about manufacturing diversification and how it can create wealth for both all nations involved.
And I tend to agree. Except that our "Economic Laws" were written in an age where commodity scarcity was not as pronounced as it is in this market....
Laws have to be re-evaluated based upon economic realities of that market.
Anyone who believes that Economics is NOT war is naive. Historically, wars are about control, territory, and wealth more than anything else.
They are fought at the negotiation table with smiles and handshakes and only fought with bullets when an impasse' has been reached.
Exactly why would a national interest policy lead to wars. I'll tell you why-- because someone doesn't get what they want.
So the choice is either a policy of caving in and appeasement or one where ground is stood for our national interest.
It amazes me that so many are unwilling to actually CARE about our own national interest or thing we have the RIGHT to advocate it.
I want to be clear on this. I don't believe that whether a course of action would lead to conflict should be a deciding factor in the decision-making process.
If a course is correct and right, it is correct and right. I am willing to accept what comes from that as opposed to capitulating based upon fear.
There's really no point in debating this. Some are willing to place national interest first, and some are not. I am of the former.
Many will debate that nature of global economics and come to different conclusions.
I've listened to TOO many Economists in my life and understand that we are speaking of theories only. Most Economists belong in an academic setting and are unable to operate in practice.
Don't believe me? Well, I had a client who was an Economics professor who only invested in Closed-End Mutual Funds because they always traded at a discount to their "Book Value." He was absolutely convinced that he could not lose money in them because the "Break-up' Value was greater that the market price. Never mind that his investments never made money. You see-- it fit his theory, but didn't fit reality.
On a side note related to the above story-- the best definition of the value of a security is:
What the NEXT fool will pay for it. It really is that simple.
-- John
G17Steve
Member
"Coming soon in the hands of Chinese jack booted thugs near you!"
In the meantime, most of the army is equipped with the Type 81 AK... They have had several other weapons systems (that one I think) that they abandoned, I know now they are supposedly working on an 6.8 or something rifle...
The French should sue them for stealing their FAMAS design.
The French should sue them for stealing their FAMAS design.
Would that include the Dog Treats that my youngest Jack Russell Terrier ate last August and has cost me to-date over $3,000 in medical bills? Yes... it DID end up on the Chinese recall list.
Josey's had 2 blood transfusions, a round of Chemotherapy in order to revitalize her red blood count, and we have been weining her off of medicines for several months. She has had to have bloodwork done every 2 weeks since August.
She is completely cured now. (We hope.)
Or perhaps the toys that kids are chewing on painted with lead paint?
What indeed. I wonder that often these days.
Let's be clear: Are we defending THIS government, when we see threads ROUTINELY bashing our own government/LEOs/Etc.? It seems that as long as we are counter to the US, we are doing fine around here.
-- John
casio02478
Member
- Joined
- Oct 15, 2006
- Messages
- 160
John you are absolutely right about the paint and poisoned dog food. That is a tragedy and should not be allowed to happen. It is a damn shame that it did. Our government need to have better control over the products coming in and our companies need to put American people's needs before their need to make a profit. Nevertheless those dog foods and toys were sold under trusted American labels, not Chinese. In order to make it on the shelf it has to pass checks imposed by us. Did the Chinese company do business in bad faith and employed under handed practice? They absolutely did but is it a reflection of all Chinese made goods or the nation as a whole. Absolutely not! Also to condemn a entire nation's products based on two things is like saying GM issued a recall on their truck then American made light bulbs must also be bad too by association. I understand where you are coming from and I am sorry what happened to your dog but the logic leap here is just too much. Also the greatest freedom in America is that we get to call it the way we see it, even if it runs counter to “patriotic” needs. Just because someone don’t agrees with the mass census or government’s policies does not mean that someone is anti-US. I say this with opens heart as someone who fought for this country.
Casio02478,
Have you taken a look at the recall list? The sheer volume is overwhelming.
I am not willing to lay the Lion's share of the blame in US for not catching it. The fault lies in those that DID it, not those that were too ignorant to catch it.
That is like blaming a women for getting raped.
Yep, I blame them as well.
The problem is that it is NOT an accepted level of "isolated" incident based upon the recall lists that I read after Josey got sick.
Fair enough. But as I pointed out, I have other reasons to not desire to rejoice China's prosperity. These include my own personal experience with Josey, the sheer volume of the recall lists, the political situation within the country, human rights issues, and my views on global economics.
However, I do concede your point here.
And I appreciate your words regarding Josey.
-- John
Have you taken a look at the recall list? The sheer volume is overwhelming.
I am not willing to lay the Lion's share of the blame in US for not catching it. The fault lies in those that DID it, not those that were too ignorant to catch it.
That is like blaming a women for getting raped.
Yep, I blame them as well.
The problem is that it is NOT an accepted level of "isolated" incident based upon the recall lists that I read after Josey got sick.
Fair enough. But as I pointed out, I have other reasons to not desire to rejoice China's prosperity. These include my own personal experience with Josey, the sheer volume of the recall lists, the political situation within the country, human rights issues, and my views on global economics.
However, I do concede your point here.
And I appreciate your words regarding Josey.
-- John
casio02478
Member
- Joined
- Oct 15, 2006
- Messages
- 160
LoL, John I think we might have hijacked this thread. I am glad you dog is getting better and I will drink to Josey's health tonight .
.- Status
