Is it safe to assume that noone here is a...

This thread is comical to say the least.

I'd like to clarify just a little. At least with Reform Jews, this is absolutely the case.

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I don't think you can say that. Whoever took it upon themselves to write this stuff may believe whatever, but I'm sure there are plenty of Reform Jews who have guns and are on our side 100%.

Given my own ancestry and their experiences, I personally think that any Jew who opposes private gun ownership has psychological problems.

.cheese. said:

here we go again....

been discussed before and didn't end too well last time IIRC..... btw - IBTL

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+1 IBTL

"The Jews" refers to so many different entities, though, it's not a useful category unless you are saying something that really refers to everyone who could possibly fit the category, and it's very rare that you would (i.e. "Hitler wanted to exterminate the Jews" would be about the only time I could think to use "the Jews" in a sentence, other than a literary reference to the Old Testament).

ArmedBear said:

Given my own ancestry and their experiences, I personally think that any Jew who opposes private gun ownership has psychological problems.

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I'll go one further. Anyone who opposes private gun ownership has psychological problems. (fixed that for ya)

IBTL and all that stuff...

Presbyterian?

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There are Presbyterians and then there are "PINOs". The PCUSA is at one end of a long (> 1 century) slide into theological and political liberalism. Along the way other, more othrodox bodies (OPC, PCA, probably others) split themselves off. Unfortunately, they are far smaller.

Gun control is just a part of the problem.

This is old news, by the way.

I grew up in the Presbyterian Church. I don't think it was a left-wing organization then

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When did you grow up in it? I did too, and I remember talk of the leftish tendencies (remember Angela Davis?), and membership hemorrhage, in the '60s. If you didn't notice, you were either OPC/PCA, or not paying attention. Or blessed by a sound congregation and pastor.

Justin, are you taking a nap or what?

I just don't know why they would be.

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Because the "mainstream" clerical leadership comes from places such as the Harvard Divinity School where actual belief has been passe since the 60's. They see the churches as ways of pushing for "social justice" which they take to include forced disarmament.

Quakers

I am a member of a Quaker meeting. Several members are avid hunters and a few more join me on occasion at the local pistol range. Quakers by choice are pacifist however I don't think that precludes self defense. Our preacher leans to the left but I have never heard him say anything anti-gun. He knows I carry and we get along just fine.

I thought everybody knew that the "mainline" Protestant denominations have their left-wing branches (PCUSA, ECLA) and their more moderate/conservative branches (PCA, LCMS, Southern Baptist).

There are still plenty of churches (Presbyterian and otherwise) out there that preach Christ rather than "social justice" and victim disarmament. And in the spirit of full disclosure, I am not a member of any of the above groups.

Nooooo. It's about the benjamins first and foremost. Even if it is totally on the up-and-up, the ultimate end-game is always the acquisition of funds.

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No.

Organized religion in general is about populace control under threat of damnation to hell or excommunication and ostracism. Followers (arnt they sometimes referred to as Sheep or a flock?, and operate with a shepherd / sheep hierarchy? ) will do as they're told.

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No again.

Get real, guys.

As I've stated to our friends before, the statement/views of the Presbyterian and United Methodist Church, among others, shows the fallacy of religion versus the function of Faith.

My Christian faith is the center of my life, even though my language often seems to betray that. I try to live my life more by deeds than by spoken words, and it is those deeds that our friends judge me by, rather than by my sometimes profane words.

As such, I feel it is my duty to God to be prepared and willing to defend myself and those incapable of defending themselves, for whatever reasons.

To me, it boils down to a basic Good versus Evil thing. I choose the side of Good, and to do so, being armed and willing has helped me defeat Evil when I've been face to face with it.

I think too many pulpit pounders are soft, pampered, spoiled idealists who enjoy the perks of running a church, the admiration and "worship" from their flocks, and the combination of those two lead to a Power complex.

All of which is why my wife and no longer belong to a "named" religious group, but instead are devout members of a non-denominational church. Such a doctrine (gun control) simply would not fly in our church.

Jeff

Uh, oh. I know I'm really treading the line here, but Jesus was all about social justice.

Social justice is mostly a meaningless phrase, having nothing to do with actual justice. Although we could define social justice in such a way as to align with the teachings of Christ, that is not what is meant by the churches that have "social justice committees."

Jesus was all about social justice.

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Not by this definition, from Wikipedia:
"Social justice refers to the concept of a society in which justice is achieved in every aspect of society, rather than merely the administration of law. It is generally thought of as a world which affords individuals and groups fair treatment and an impartial share of the benefits of society."

Read 2 Thessalonians, chapter 3. Doesn't sound remotely like what "social justice" advocates want, today.

To answer the thread title, "No." There are probably some Presbyterians here. Even PCUSA members. The high muckety-mucks in these liberal religious groups are usually farther to the left than the membership at large.


AB, I assume you're talking about this part:

6In the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, we command you, brothers, to keep away from every brother who is idle and does not live according to the teaching[a] you received from us. 7For you yourselves know how you ought to follow our example. We were not idle when we were with you, 8nor did we eat anyone's food without paying for it. On the contrary, we worked night and day, laboring and toiling so that we would not be a burden to any of you. 9We did this, not because we do not have the right to such help, but in order to make ourselves a model for you to follow. 10For even when we were with you, we gave you this rule: "If a man will not work, he shall not eat."

11We hear that some among you are idle. They are not busy; they are busybodies. 12Such people we command and urge in the Lord Jesus Christ to settle down and earn the bread they eat.

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Wiki's definition of social justice is telling. Sounds nice. Also sounds ambiguous. The kind of language leftists love.

Churches Weigh In On Gun Control
Submitted by Reneé LaSalle on June 18, 2008 - 5:38pm.

A day old is old news now?

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That the PCUSA is anti-rights is old news. See the horse's mouth.

The Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.) has a thirty year history of support for gun control legislation. Beginning in the late 1960's, in response to the assassinations of public leaders, the General Assembly called for ". . . control [of] the sale and possession of fire arms of all kinds."1 In 1976, this statement was re-affirmed, but also specifically worded to ". . .not cover shotguns and rifles used legitimately by sportsmen. . .".2 In 1988, these and other statements supporting gun control were again reaffirmed.

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OK, maybe it's old news to me, because I grew up in it, was a member again briefly a decade and a half ago, and try to keep some track of goings on in it.

BTW, PCA pastor (and Citadel graduate, former military man) Rev. Ron Gleason weighs in today: http://rongleason.blogspot.com/2008/06/gun-control-is-not-about-guns-but-about.html.

Big45,

Although I do not agree with the anti-gun stance of the PCUSA, it should be expected that one's religion will have an effect on one's public policy views. The Bible does not have a lot to say about gun laws, but nor does it say much about racism, or wife-beating. We wouldn't be surprised if a religious group came out against the last two things, would we? For those left-wing Christians who feel that guns are terrible instruments of violence against one's fellow man, or whatever, it is not surprising that they would have a gun-control plank in their belief system. Is it?

And my question is why?

Why don't they stick to teaching about Jesus and leave Public policy alone?

Why? What is it their business?

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I'm afraid that any honest, open discussion of potential reasons for this would be off-limits for discussion here.