45R
Member
It is seriously envious of my Benelli! 
870 Problem!!!!!!!!
- Thread starter 45R
- Start date
- Status
LAPD SWAT has complete confidence in their Benelli shotguns, but not so much in the Remington 870:
"SWAT uses two shotguns. The Remington 870, a pump-action 12-gauge workhorse that is one of the most popular shotguns in law-enforcement service today, was the first shotgun issued to SWAT officers in its early years. But its pumping action was found to be cumbersome, especially during the chaos of a prolonged close-range firefight. They remain in use, but are mainly deployed for firing diversionary munitions, such as the highly effective Starflash, or for blowing doors off their hinges. Many of the SWAT team's weapons have been modified by the platoon's armorer.
Today, SWAT's two main shotguns are the Italian-made Benelli 12-gauge M1 Super 90 shotgun and the Benelli 121-M-1 recoil-operation semiautomatic shotgun. "The Benelli is a masterpiece of ballistic handiwork," says a SWAT officer, effortlessly inserting shells into his weapon as he prepares for the day's action. "It is comfortable to fire, accurate and it fits our needs perfectly." Officers zero the Benelli sights for a center hole at about 150 ft., with 1-ounce slugs and patterned for various distances with 00-buckshot magnum ammunition. Virtually all of the Benellis are fitted with a mini-flashlight attachment."
http://www.popularmechanics.com/technology/military_law/1280896.html?page=3
"SWAT uses two shotguns. The Remington 870, a pump-action 12-gauge workhorse that is one of the most popular shotguns in law-enforcement service today, was the first shotgun issued to SWAT officers in its early years. But its pumping action was found to be cumbersome, especially during the chaos of a prolonged close-range firefight. They remain in use, but are mainly deployed for firing diversionary munitions, such as the highly effective Starflash, or for blowing doors off their hinges. Many of the SWAT team's weapons have been modified by the platoon's armorer.
Today, SWAT's two main shotguns are the Italian-made Benelli 12-gauge M1 Super 90 shotgun and the Benelli 121-M-1 recoil-operation semiautomatic shotgun. "The Benelli is a masterpiece of ballistic handiwork," says a SWAT officer, effortlessly inserting shells into his weapon as he prepares for the day's action. "It is comfortable to fire, accurate and it fits our needs perfectly." Officers zero the Benelli sights for a center hole at about 150 ft., with 1-ounce slugs and patterned for various distances with 00-buckshot magnum ammunition. Virtually all of the Benellis are fitted with a mini-flashlight attachment."
http://www.popularmechanics.com/technology/military_law/1280896.html?page=3
Virginian
Member
The day I let anything to do with LA influence me, I'll probably vote for Obama.
chas08
Member
Well Said, Virginian. Having owned a benelli sbe1 that I was less than impressed with. I once again place my trust in a Remington 870. And I'm only shooting Ducks, not bad guys. And yes I do not capitalize the word benelli on purpose.
ImARugerFan
Member
Your nova is seriously envious of my wingmaster.
Fred Fuller
Moderator Emeritus
Can't really blame the hardware for software problems, now can we? 8^)
lpl
lpl
chas08
Member
I'm going out on a limb here and am guessing that since the above comment had an 8 near the end, it was directed to me. So in fairness to the firearm, some further explanation is necessary. I consider two broken firing pins in a five year (thereabouts) time period, a hardware problem. Also in all fairness to the firearm, I was shooting 3.5 in. T-shot at the time of failure on both occasions. After the second failure, I had lost all confidence in it, and it became a safe queen for another two years or so, until I decided to stop letting that money just sit there, and sold it. Three other guns now occupy that monetary space. An Ithaca 37, Remington 1187, and a Winchester 1400. All purchased used, in very clean shape. I know benelli doesn't build junk, but for me, it was like buying a brand of vehicle that I never owned before and it turned out to be a lemon, I'm not going to endorse it, or ever buy another one.
DaleCooper51
Member
chaos that's a text smilie face.
look at it sideways.
look at it sideways.
chas08
Member
(LOL) "good one"
elChupacabra!
member
- Joined
- May 29, 2008
- Messages
- 562
Yeah, I'm going to go with 45R and agree that I like my Benelli Nova Special Purpose better than the 870 I owned before it (money got tight and sold it, had money again, bought the Nova - never looked back!).
The Remington wasn't bad but I like some of the features the Benelli offers, like the magazine cutoff switch in the foreend, the longer foreend which is a little more comfortable to hold for long periods (with that elbow closer in to your body, and yes I know you can't use a side-saddle but a buttstock shell carrier works well for me, adds balance to the weapon), GREAT LPA ghost-ring sights included in the price, etc.
Again I know the 870 has a dedicated following but I think the Nova is tops, in my humble opinion.
Also for the record neither one of them has had any reliability issues, so I consider them equal there, again in my experience.
The Remington wasn't bad but I like some of the features the Benelli offers, like the magazine cutoff switch in the foreend, the longer foreend which is a little more comfortable to hold for long periods (with that elbow closer in to your body, and yes I know you can't use a side-saddle but a buttstock shell carrier works well for me, adds balance to the weapon), GREAT LPA ghost-ring sights included in the price, etc.
Again I know the 870 has a dedicated following but I think the Nova is tops, in my humble opinion.
Also for the record neither one of them has had any reliability issues, so I consider them equal there, again in my experience.
Bulletsponge
Member
- Joined
- Nov 9, 2007
- Messages
- 17
Heh, I saw the post title and thought, "Blasphemy!".
throdgrain
Member
This thread is a proper wind-up in fairness ... but fwiw I own a Benelli M2 and Mossberg 500. I have a 870 on order but thats another story.
Anyway, much as I love my Mossberg, the Benelli is a class gun. Its really really well made, points superbly, and fits me like a glove. I wouldnt swap it for anything.
Anyway, much as I love my Mossberg, the Benelli is a class gun. Its really really well made, points superbly, and fits me like a glove. I wouldnt swap it for anything.
BigCompetator
Member
i agree with bulletsponge "blasphemy" is correct the 870 was voted the number 1 overall shotgun for hunting,tactical,and overall quality and versatility. personally there is not a better shotgun than the 870.
Matt-J2
Member
Well I didn't vote for it....
Scattergun Bob
Member
- Joined
- May 19, 2008
- Messages
- 50
45R
12 years ago I had a side business hawking H&K LE equipment. Had a great time doing it but made little in the way of profits. Mostly because I liked to experiment on the companies "dime". Thank God for a real day job!
I wrote this article for a central & southern CA tactical magazine, it is'n very good, but maybe it will be a good bed time story for your young 870. At least he isn't hanging out on the corner with those BAD 1100 brothers!
What's Wrong With the Benelli M-1 Super 90 Shotgun?
First let me say, I am a Benelli guy, I shoot the gun rigorously, I have spent days, weeks, HELL, I have spent too much time, causing this gun to fail and dissecting the fault. As with many of us, I started with a pump gun and stepped "up" to a self-loader. I emphasize the "up" because 'in my opinion' this is a Qualitative not a Quantitative description.
Before I discuss what is wrong with the Benelli, let me first talk about what is right about the Benelli. For the delivery of a massive projectile weight in the shortest time, at close distance there is simply no better weapon system available to Law Enforcement. Some will point to the MP-5 and say "More Better", this simply is not the case.
(Experiment #1)
Two 3 round bursts from an MP-5A2(3RB) delivers six 147 grain 9MM projectiles for a total weight of 882 Grains. Two rounds of 12 gauge 000 Buckshot (my favorite) deliver 16 projectiles average weight of 70.5 grains for a total weight of 1,128 Grains. The trick is both guns deliver their rounds in about the same amount of time! Understand that this experiment does not address an extended firefight, projectile velocity, muzzle flash, or recoil. I am simply discussing one of the many variables that exist.
The Benelli has solved one of the worst failures in combat shotguns. It WILL work with a shell on the shell carrier! There are no replacement parts necessary to make this occur. They designed this weapon from the start to operate with a shell on the shell carrier. As a side note, as of this writing I have yet to experience a multiple round transfer from the magazine tube to the shell carrier.
Now What is wrong with the Benelli M-1
1. The most serious problem with the Benelli lays between our ears
It is not a pump! Please don't take this statement lightly. Most of us are more comfortable with pump shotguns, we want self-loaders, but we trust pumps. This same mixture of 'wants' vs. trust must have occurred in 1930's when the first M-1 Grands came into service replacing the exceptional 1903A3. The transition of Law Enforcement from revolver to self-loading pistols consumed reams and reams of paper bitching or praising, for and against, one or the other. LETS FACE IT FOLKS, our minds don't change easily!
It's not a pump, it's a self-loader simply means that we must condition our minds to except the fact that the gun uses mechanical energy "other than our arms" to operate. This is a fact, and it denies us the ability to jam the bolt open or closed by sheer force of " will and arm". This fact denies us the mental comfort of slamming our 870 fore-end home with authority and "knowing" its in-battery, and also, the immediate body alarm that goes off when the fore-end abruptly stops somewhere else.
With the self-loader we think that we can never be sure that it will fire when we need it and we won't know about it until it's too late. This is a false notion, there are easy ways to immediately prove 'in-battery' with this weapon just as in the 1911 or Glock.
2. It DOES HAVE stoppages!
This should not be surprising to anyone. Any mechanical device will fail to operate, even our trusty pumps. I have catalogued 7 types of stoppages in the Benelli, 2 of which may be inertia related.
Four of these stoppages occur in all self-loaders, (most occur in pump shotguns) they range from the weapon being "empty", to shells loaded in the receiver backwards. I do not believe that the Benelli is any more or less prone to these types of stoppage that any other quality weapon.
Two stoppages are common to but not limited to the design of the weapons operating system. I will not lecture you on the merits and design of the inertia operating system. I will simply say that the physics of this type of operating system requires that the weapon does not travel either forward or rearward at any great velocity at the time of the extraction cycle.
The gun must be held firmly and basically in place for the system to work as specified. In my mind this eliminates any (miss guided) thoughts of hip shooting this weapons (see your sight = hit your target). It may however present a stoppage problem if the weapon is fired with the stock away from the shoulder, slipping off the shoulder or from an underarm position.
The next inertia stoppage is due to operator error. If you assist or obstruct the bolt in any manner from traveling forward there is a great likelihood that the locking head will not engage the locking lugs and "hang" just short of in-battery. This is a common occurrence and is most evident when loading the weapon through the ejection port. This stoppage can be immediately discovered if you incorporate the "in-battery" check with your loading drill.
3. It demands Periodic Maintenance Service (PMS), to prevent Piss-Poor Mechanical Function (P-PMF)
I am not suggesting that pumps don't require PMS, they do. I am suggesting that PMS in the Benelli is paramount to its operating reliability. I am also emphatically stating that if you do not perform good periodic maintenance service on this weapon, you will experience mechanical failure. If it's your weapon and your life, shoot only superior factory rounds and best clean your SCATTERGUN.
My rule of thumb is that each time I am done firing the Benelli I will remove the barrel and clean at least the chamber, pull the RAT, clean the bolt face and under the extractor head, and wipe down the inside of the receiver (don't forget the receiver rails). This is a minimum, must do, to prevent P-PMF. You can not be lazy, you can not say tomorrow, just do it!
Remember, in the middle of the gunfight, no matter how strong your ARMS are, forcefully racking the fore-end will not make up for poor PMS of this weapon and that's guaranteed!
4. Limitations of a LONG ALUMINUM Receiver
IF YOU READ NOTHING ELSE, READ THIS : Under no circumstances attach a sidesaddle shell carrier to the receiver of any M-1. Under no circumstances replace the trigger guard pin with any steel screw or bolt.
In closing I say the Benelli is a true race horse, properly maintained, competently handled it out classes the field in its speed of delivering fire. It has some compromises, we have discussed those, it fixes some flaws in the operation of combat shotguns, we've discussed those, it is not a club. Does the M-1 fill the all the needs of Law Enforcement, is it truly the best scattergun? I don't know. I do know that in 7 years of shooting Benelli's I have had 3 failures that I did not self-induce. Two were operator error, one may be ammo related, all three surprised me, all three would probably have been tragic had it not been a training exercise, fortunately God is forgiving & paper targets don't shoot back! IT ONLY PAYS TO WIN,
Scattergun Bob
12 years ago I had a side business hawking H&K LE equipment. Had a great time doing it but made little in the way of profits. Mostly because I liked to experiment on the companies "dime". Thank God for a real day job!
I wrote this article for a central & southern CA tactical magazine, it is'n very good, but maybe it will be a good bed time story for your young 870. At least he isn't hanging out on the corner with those BAD 1100 brothers!
What's Wrong With the Benelli M-1 Super 90 Shotgun?
First let me say, I am a Benelli guy, I shoot the gun rigorously, I have spent days, weeks, HELL, I have spent too much time, causing this gun to fail and dissecting the fault. As with many of us, I started with a pump gun and stepped "up" to a self-loader. I emphasize the "up" because 'in my opinion' this is a Qualitative not a Quantitative description.
Before I discuss what is wrong with the Benelli, let me first talk about what is right about the Benelli. For the delivery of a massive projectile weight in the shortest time, at close distance there is simply no better weapon system available to Law Enforcement. Some will point to the MP-5 and say "More Better", this simply is not the case.
(Experiment #1)
Two 3 round bursts from an MP-5A2(3RB) delivers six 147 grain 9MM projectiles for a total weight of 882 Grains. Two rounds of 12 gauge 000 Buckshot (my favorite) deliver 16 projectiles average weight of 70.5 grains for a total weight of 1,128 Grains. The trick is both guns deliver their rounds in about the same amount of time! Understand that this experiment does not address an extended firefight, projectile velocity, muzzle flash, or recoil. I am simply discussing one of the many variables that exist.
The Benelli has solved one of the worst failures in combat shotguns. It WILL work with a shell on the shell carrier! There are no replacement parts necessary to make this occur. They designed this weapon from the start to operate with a shell on the shell carrier. As a side note, as of this writing I have yet to experience a multiple round transfer from the magazine tube to the shell carrier.
Now What is wrong with the Benelli M-1
1. The most serious problem with the Benelli lays between our ears
It is not a pump! Please don't take this statement lightly. Most of us are more comfortable with pump shotguns, we want self-loaders, but we trust pumps. This same mixture of 'wants' vs. trust must have occurred in 1930's when the first M-1 Grands came into service replacing the exceptional 1903A3. The transition of Law Enforcement from revolver to self-loading pistols consumed reams and reams of paper bitching or praising, for and against, one or the other. LETS FACE IT FOLKS, our minds don't change easily!
It's not a pump, it's a self-loader simply means that we must condition our minds to except the fact that the gun uses mechanical energy "other than our arms" to operate. This is a fact, and it denies us the ability to jam the bolt open or closed by sheer force of " will and arm". This fact denies us the mental comfort of slamming our 870 fore-end home with authority and "knowing" its in-battery, and also, the immediate body alarm that goes off when the fore-end abruptly stops somewhere else.
With the self-loader we think that we can never be sure that it will fire when we need it and we won't know about it until it's too late. This is a false notion, there are easy ways to immediately prove 'in-battery' with this weapon just as in the 1911 or Glock.
2. It DOES HAVE stoppages!
This should not be surprising to anyone. Any mechanical device will fail to operate, even our trusty pumps. I have catalogued 7 types of stoppages in the Benelli, 2 of which may be inertia related.
Four of these stoppages occur in all self-loaders, (most occur in pump shotguns) they range from the weapon being "empty", to shells loaded in the receiver backwards. I do not believe that the Benelli is any more or less prone to these types of stoppage that any other quality weapon.
Two stoppages are common to but not limited to the design of the weapons operating system. I will not lecture you on the merits and design of the inertia operating system. I will simply say that the physics of this type of operating system requires that the weapon does not travel either forward or rearward at any great velocity at the time of the extraction cycle.
The gun must be held firmly and basically in place for the system to work as specified. In my mind this eliminates any (miss guided) thoughts of hip shooting this weapons (see your sight = hit your target). It may however present a stoppage problem if the weapon is fired with the stock away from the shoulder, slipping off the shoulder or from an underarm position.
The next inertia stoppage is due to operator error. If you assist or obstruct the bolt in any manner from traveling forward there is a great likelihood that the locking head will not engage the locking lugs and "hang" just short of in-battery. This is a common occurrence and is most evident when loading the weapon through the ejection port. This stoppage can be immediately discovered if you incorporate the "in-battery" check with your loading drill.
3. It demands Periodic Maintenance Service (PMS), to prevent Piss-Poor Mechanical Function (P-PMF)
I am not suggesting that pumps don't require PMS, they do. I am suggesting that PMS in the Benelli is paramount to its operating reliability. I am also emphatically stating that if you do not perform good periodic maintenance service on this weapon, you will experience mechanical failure. If it's your weapon and your life, shoot only superior factory rounds and best clean your SCATTERGUN.
My rule of thumb is that each time I am done firing the Benelli I will remove the barrel and clean at least the chamber, pull the RAT, clean the bolt face and under the extractor head, and wipe down the inside of the receiver (don't forget the receiver rails). This is a minimum, must do, to prevent P-PMF. You can not be lazy, you can not say tomorrow, just do it!
Remember, in the middle of the gunfight, no matter how strong your ARMS are, forcefully racking the fore-end will not make up for poor PMS of this weapon and that's guaranteed!
4. Limitations of a LONG ALUMINUM Receiver
IF YOU READ NOTHING ELSE, READ THIS : Under no circumstances attach a sidesaddle shell carrier to the receiver of any M-1. Under no circumstances replace the trigger guard pin with any steel screw or bolt.
In closing I say the Benelli is a true race horse, properly maintained, competently handled it out classes the field in its speed of delivering fire. It has some compromises, we have discussed those, it fixes some flaws in the operation of combat shotguns, we've discussed those, it is not a club. Does the M-1 fill the all the needs of Law Enforcement, is it truly the best scattergun? I don't know. I do know that in 7 years of shooting Benelli's I have had 3 failures that I did not self-induce. Two were operator error, one may be ammo related, all three surprised me, all three would probably have been tragic had it not been a training exercise, fortunately God is forgiving & paper targets don't shoot back! IT ONLY PAYS TO WIN,
Scattergun Bob
45R
Member
Huh guys don't take this thread so seriously. I post this about once every blue moon as a joke between Dave, myself and some of the senior THR members....:banghead:
For some fun reading
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=122920&highlight=Benelli
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=214659&highlight=Benelli
Make no mistake the 870 are Benelli M1s are solid systems, however your comparing the taste of Apple and Oranges. I'm very happy with both systems however I just prefer the Benelli (Because I am too damn lazy to shuck a shotgun)
For some fun reading
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=122920&highlight=Benelli
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=214659&highlight=Benelli
Make no mistake the 870 are Benelli M1s are solid systems, however your comparing the taste of Apple and Oranges. I'm very happy with both systems however I just prefer the Benelli (Because I am too damn lazy to shuck a shotgun)
45R
Member
Bob-
I would have to respectfully disagree with you on the sidesaddle however mileage may vary with different folks on my statement.
"Under no circumstances attach a sidesaddle shell carrier to the receiver of any M-1.Under no circumstances replace the trigger guard pin with any steel screw or bolt."
I specifically ran a sidesaddle shell carrier on my M1Tactical for a shotgun class. I replaced the trigger guard pins with the supplied bolt and had no problems during the class. The bolt was loctited down so I did not have to torque to bolts too hard on to the reciever. I think the issues with the sidesaddle was that too many people torqued the screws down pinching the receiver. The Benelli was set up with a recoil pad, tactical bolt handle, Sidesaddle and extension, it functioned properly.
See below
Scattergun Bob
Member
- Joined
- May 19, 2008
- Messages
- 50
45R
That is exactly the issue, many M-1 receivers were lost due to a little too much twist on the wrench. At that time H&K would not assume warranty for tweaked receivers because of this issue.
I am sure things have changed in 12 plus years since this was written, the boys from Benelli my have addressed the issue.
I too was looking at this post as satire, hence the "street corner" comments.
Good Luck & Be Safe
That is exactly the issue, many M-1 receivers were lost due to a little too much twist on the wrench. At that time H&K would not assume warranty for tweaked receivers because of this issue.
I am sure things have changed in 12 plus years since this was written, the boys from Benelli my have addressed the issue.
I too was looking at this post as satire, hence the "street corner" comments.
Good Luck & Be Safe
OregonJohnny
Member
Can't help but jump in, even though I get the feeling the posters on this thread are both pro-870 and pro-Benelli. And this all seems to be pretty light-hearted. Anyway...
My first new gun EVER was a Remington 870 Express with 28" barrel when I was 12. Thanks for the birthday present, Dad!
About 10,000 flawless rounds later (and only about 3 or 4 cleanings) I stupidly sold it to help pay for a motorcycle. I promptly realized the error of my ways and added an 870 Marine Magnum back into my collection. I keep it loaded with 6 rounds of 2 3/4" 00 Buck in the tube and 5 on a butt stock side saddle.
OK, my plug for Remington 870 shotguns is now over.
My first new gun EVER was a Remington 870 Express with 28" barrel when I was 12. Thanks for the birthday present, Dad!
About 10,000 flawless rounds later (and only about 3 or 4 cleanings) I stupidly sold it to help pay for a motorcycle. I promptly realized the error of my ways and added an 870 Marine Magnum back into my collection. I keep it loaded with 6 rounds of 2 3/4" 00 Buck in the tube and 5 on a butt stock side saddle.
OK, my plug for Remington 870 shotguns is now over.
The first shotgun I ever owned was an 870. Would I swap any of my semi-autos for another one? No way in Hades! 
"With powerful guns, size matters. At 410 pounds, security man Marcus Kranz holds Benelli auto shotgun on target as he nails it with five rounds of full power 12 gauge buckshot in 69/100ths of one second at 7 yards. Note 3 spent shells circled, in mid-air."
http://www.backwoodshome.com/articles2/ayoob97.html
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