AR CCW..Mental Health Issue

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AcroPilot

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Greetings. I've lurked here a bit and just registered today.

I have a question about CCW in Arkansas.

Some background-

I'm a resident of AR. I've lived in PA most of my life and had a concealed carry permit there for 20+ years. My last permit expired about 5 years ago. At the time, those permits cost $15 and were valid for 5 yrs (what a bargain compared to what the cost is here).

I am not on the NICS list as far as I know because I passed the check within the past year.

Here's the problem. 8 yrs ago I voluntarily admitted myself to a psychiatric hospital. Depression and stress from my son's death and my divorce.

Here is part of the AR CCW application-
-----------------------------------------------------------------
MENTAL HEALTH
1. Have you ever been adjudicated mentally incompetent? ______________________________

2. Have you ever been voluntarily committed to a mental institution or mental health treatment facility? __________________________

3. Have you ever been involuntarily committed to a mental institution or mental health treatment facility? ________________________

4. Have you ever been adjudicated as a mental defective? ____________________________

5. Do you suffer from a mental infirmity that prevents the safe handling of a handgun? ___________________
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Read question #2. Voluntarily committed.

Would I answer yes?

Will this be an automatic denial?

I'll probably have to get the advice of a lawyer, but if anyone here is familiar with AR CCW policies I'd appreciate your input.

Thank you
 
*IANAL*

But....ahhh, jeez. Trying to think back to the debate on the Veterans Disarmament Bill, and something NC is doing...

"Committed" - means...????

When you went in voluntarily....could you leave at any time you WANTED to? I'd wager that might play a part in it. Maybe...don't know, but eager to see the answer anyhow.
 
Committed means??... My question too.

I was there 5 days. When I decided it was time to leave I had an interview with one of the docs there and left the next morning.

Most applications I've seen have questions similar to 1, 3, 4, 5, but #2 was a surprise.
 
My advice would be to seek professional counseling and discuss the matter with an attorney. Sounds to me like your between a rock and a hard place.
Good luck.
 
Agree--this is a lawyer's question.

I'm hoping that "voluntarily committed" means the person relinquishes their control for a periond of time (72 hours is typical): during that time, even if the person changes his mind--excuse the pun--they could be legally prevented from leaving.

If you were at all times during your treatment able to leave freely if you so chose, that doesn't sound like any sort of commitment. But needing an interview with a doc first (whose approval was needed to allow you to leave?) doesn't necessarily sound like you were free to come and go.

But you don't want to answer this one falsely (even unintentionally), and you don't want to answer it at all without knowing the ramifications to you and your rights. If the true answer does disqualify you, I would think there HAS to be a way--probably a difficult, expensive way--of "rehabilitating" your RKBA, so long as a professional is willing to state that you're "all better now." But I don't know.

Gosh, I'd much rather buy a gun than a lawyer's time--but I think you've got little choice here. Before you meet with him/her, get copies of all the documents you signed when you went into treatment: if any of them say "commitment," that part of your question is answered.

Good luck. Let us know. IANAL, and would value the info.
 
Those words tend to have specific legal definitions. That's lawyer time. But also, the question is if answering yes would result in a disqualification for a permit. In most states that would not DSQ you (here in MO it wouldn't, I believe), but I don't know AR's law. Again, that's lawyer time.
 
Sounds like the answer to question #2 is a yes. I would write down an explanation of the circumstances and attach it to your application.

You should check and see if your state allows for an appeal if they do deny you. If it does it seems that you might as well just explain it and send it in and if they deny you then it would be time to lawyer up.
 
I am an Arkansas and UAMS physician.
You were not voluntarily committed, you were admitted.
Commitment is only done through legal means-usually a local judge.
An ER Doc can place you under a 72 hr hold which is still not a commitment in this state.

Answer is NO on #2.
Is is a very poorly worded question.

CPERMD
 
Commitment is only done through legal means-usually a local judge.
Click to expand...
Hmmmm: And so if a judge sentences you, you were "voluntarily imprisoned?" IMHO, and with all respect, cpermd, I think if a judge throws your keester into a mental facility, that is "involuntary."

Acropilot, cpermd could be right. But, should you choose to follow cpermd's advice, and then maybe you end up being charged with providing false information, etc.--make sure to use as your defense, "Some guy on the internet said it was okay! And, besides, he said your question is very poorly worded, too!"

Or ask a lawyer.

:)
 
AcroPilot--

I agree the wording on the application is hard to answer any other way than, "Yes." However, I don't think you're going to get a definitive answer here.

Keep in mind, the application is not the law. Why don't you try a little online research of the AR law that applies to CCW, application, and disqualifiers?

Good luck. I think it would be an injustice if the law did not allow you to CCW because of this fairly common emotional issue that is often successfully dealt with these days.

K
 
You need to speak with an attorney. On most of these forms, answering incorrectly is a crime. And as you've already seen, it isn't exactly clear what your answer should be for #2.

Find an attorney who is familiar with AR firearms laws. Paying a few hundred dollars now could save you thousands of dollars (and a criminal conviction) later.
 
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Kentak -

Your citing Arizona stipulations, the OP is about Arkansas. At least I think it is, as AZ is the abbreviation I understand for Arizona and AR is what I understand for Arkansas.

AcroPilot -

Contact the Attorney General's office and put the question to them. Or another route is to go to an attorney.
 
Would tend to agree with cpermd, but I don't know Arkansas law, which is of vital importance.

In TX, there is a decided legal difference between "admitted" and "committed" and you need to know that about your own state.

There have been, in the past, institutions and states which allowed a term like "voluntary committment" which is a logical, medical, and (should be) legal contradiction in terms (however, lawyers and most lawmakers don't let such contraditions bother them much).

A letter of opinion from the AG's office, if you can get one, would be gold.

Luck,

Will
 
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I would bet they aren't going to let you do it without a bit of a fight. Since you have had your permit in another state that helps your case. Write your state rep. I don't know where you are but if you luck out and have Bill Sample he is good people and will work with you.

I'd call the state police office and ask their opinion, they make the call. If you were not having violent tendancies or something that requires day to day meds I don't see what they could hassle you about. If that is the case, I think you are SOL.
 
Kentak -

Your citing Arizona stipulations, the OP is about Arkansas. At least I think it is, as AZ is the abbreviation I understand for Arizona and AR is what I understand for Arkansas.
Click to expand...


You are so right. And he said Arkansas right in his post. :eek: (Color me idiotic)

Well, maybe my info can help someone in a similar position in Arizona. LOL.

K
 
IF the story you tell is true, you were voluntarily admitted. Answer the question in the negative.

The voluntary part is confusing you, but you were voluntarily admitted, not voluntarily committed.

BUT you have to make sure that the story you told us is true, and the complete truth.
 
The language in any particular law may not necessarily mean what you expect it to mean. For example, under MA state law, a shotgun may or may not be a firearm. That is because, under MA law, the word "firearm" has a very specific definition in MGL Chapter 140 Section 121 http://www.mass.gov/legis/laws/mgl/140-121.htm

Here's the appropriate text of that law:
“Firearm”, a pistol, revolver or other weapon of any description, loaded or unloaded, from which a shot or bullet can be discharged and of which the length of the barrel or barrels is less than 16 inches or 18 inches in the case of a shotgun as originally manufactured; provided, however, that the term firearm shall not include any weapon that is: (i) constructed in a shape that does not resemble a handgun, short-barreled rifle or short-barreled shotgun including, but not limited to, covert weapons that resemble key-chains, pens, cigarette-lighters or cigarette-packages; or (ii) not detectable as a weapon or potential weapon by x-ray machines commonly used at airports or walk- through metal detectors.
Click to expand...

As you can see, that definition is very different from the meaning of the word "firearm" in common usage.

I don't know what the words "voluntarily committed" or "voluntarily admitted" mean under AR law. They might mean something very different under AR law than under the law of another state. They might mean something very different than our common understanding. Or they might not.

That is why consulting with a competent AR attorney is so important.
 
5-73-309. License — Requirements
The Director of the Department of Arkansas State Police shall issue a license to carry a concealed handgun if the applicant:
...
(11) Has not been voluntarily or involuntarily committed to a mental institution or mental health treatment facility;
Click to expand...

It would appear that this is a statutory requirement.

I skimmed though the AR concealed carry statutes and never found a definition of voluntary committed.

In fact, the mental health statute seems to use the term admitted rather than committed.

There is a link to email the chl unit at the state police. You might want to email them and ask.
 
No, I'm not a lawyer either, and yes, I think you need to consult one. However....

The section of legalese which ilbob provided appears to have been included to make it clear that the director SHALL issue a permit, as in it cannot be denied to anyone who meets these requirements. I would bet that he MAY (and probably will) issue a permit if he determines that you do not have a condition which actually makes you look like a potential risk.

The fact that you had a permit in another state probably makes it a good bet that AR will reach the same conclusion. Also, having a copy of your medical records available and/or a current medical opinion on the subject could help a lot. Like having a doctor certify that some physical problem does not impact your ability to operate a car.

It would be legally stupid for the state to NOT ask these questions. If they issued a permit to someone with known long-term serious problems without even asking it would be a real problem when he later shot someone over a minor argument. Besides, that would give the lefties more to work with.

As Technosavant pointed out earlier, failing to mention something which the department later decides should have been included may well be grounds for disqualification all by itself. That is perhaps a more serious risk.

Good luck.
 
No, answer negative on all questions. You do not have mental health issues.
Click to expand...

I could be snarky and be amazed at your ability to make mental health diagnoses on the internet. But, I'll simply say that the application didn't ask if he had "mental health issues," it asked if he was ever "voluntarily committed" to a mental health facility. Now, we can all quibble about whether there is a big difference between the words "committed" and "admitted," but the only definition that matters is the one that will be used to determine if he answered the question correctly. The OP needs to get some legal advice from someone expert in this particular part of the law.

If he takes your advice, and ends up in trouble, it's he, and not you, that will suffer. Think, man.

K
 
Committed in AR

Means that you must be committed by a judge to a mental health facility. Voluntary admission is different. I would not write a letter or anything to ASP. You don't want any red flags to delay your CHL. They don't have the brightest lightbulbs processing the applications....it took me two months to get mine over four years ago...and i've heard they are now taking almost to the max 4 months allowed by law.

If you are still concerned contact a lawyer for advice who knows his gun laws. Whatever you do, do not call ASP for their interpretation.
 
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