ATF letter to state AG's re Mental Health prohibitions

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F4GIB

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OPEN LETTER TO THE STATES' ATTORNEYS GENERAL

We at the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF), like all Americans, were saddened by the tragic events that unfolded at Virginia Tech last month. In the immediate aftermath, many questions arose about whether the person responsible for the shootings was prohibited under Federal law from possessing a firearm, and how the shooter passed the background check required before purchasing the two firearms used on April 16, 2007.

As the Federal agency responsible for enforcing the Federal firearms laws, ATF works every day to prevent the criminal misuse of firearms. We stand ready to assist our State and local partners in better understanding the Federal prohibitors and how we can work together to prevent future tragedies. This letter serves to explain what ATF has done in response to the events at Virginia Tech and to provide information on the nature and scope of the Federal prohibition.

In the initial weeks after the Virginia Tech shootings, ATF took immediate steps to communicate with our State and local law enforcement partners and the licensed firearms community. In particular, ATF joined the Secretary of Health and Human Services, who, along with the United States Attorney General and the Secretary of Education, embarked on a twelve-State effort to meet with State and local leaders, educators, mental health experts, and law enforcement officials to find out what can be learned from the tragedy at Virginia Tech. A summary of lessons learned will be reported back to the President with recommendations about how the Federal Government, working in conjunction with State and local partners, can prevent such tragedies from happening in the future.

During the first week of May, ATF used the occasion of the annual FBI National Instant Criminal Background Check System (NICS) Users Conference in Portland, Oregon, to reach out to State law enforcement officials to clarify the meaning of the Federal prohibition for those persons adjudicated as a “mental defective” or committed to a mental institution. ATF has also begun the process of clarifying the Firearms Transaction Record (ATF Form 4473), the form that is completed whenever a person purchases a firearm from a federally licensed dealer. The new Form 4473 will make it clear, for example, that any person who has been found by a court, board, or other lawful authority to be a danger to self or others is prohibited from purchasing a firearm or ammunition. ATF will also be sending an open letter to all Federal firearms licensees to further instruct on the meaning of the Federal prohibition.

Many States are already taking steps to identify persons who are prohibited from possessing firearms as a result of their mental health history. However, as of April 2007, only 23 States have submitted any mental health information to the NICS system, and only four regularly report such information. ATF and our FBI partners who operate the NICS system are encouraging State authorities to take the necessary actions to ensure that all disqualifying information is provided to prevent the purchase of firearms by those prohibited from possessing firearms under Federal law. Accordingly, ATF stands ready to assist any State with questions or concerns they may have with respect to collecting additional information regarding whether a person is prohibited from possessing a firearm or ammunition pursuant to 18 U.S.C. § 922(g)(4). Many States are considering how to enhance their collection efforts in the aftermath of Virginia Tech, ATF would like to provide all necessary assistance with those efforts.

Section 922(g)(4) of 18 U.S.C. makes it unlawful for any person who has been adjudicated as a mental defective or who has been committed to a mental institution to possess firearms or ammunition. This prohibition covers two classes of persons—those who have either been (1) adjudicated as a mental defective; or (2) committed to a mental institution.

Each of these terms is defined by Federal regulation at 27 C.F.R. § 478.11 as follows:
ADJUDICATED AS A MENTAL DEFECTIVE

1. A determination by a court, board, commission, or other lawful authority that a person, as a result of marked subnormal intelligence, or mental illness, incompetency, condition, or disease:
1. Is a danger to himself or to others; or
2. Lacks the mental capacity to contract or manage his own affairs.
2. The term shall include—
1. A finding of insanity by a court in a criminal case; and
2. Those persons found incompetent to stand trial or found not guilty by reason of lack of mental responsibility pursuant to articles 50a and 72b of the Uniform Code of Military Justice, 10 U.S.C. 850a, 876b.

COMMITTED TO A MENTAL INSTITUTION

This term means a formal commitment of a person to a mental institution by a court, board, commission, or other lawful authority. The term includes a commitment to a mental institution involuntarily. The term also includes a commitment for mental defectiveness or mental illness, and commitments for other reasons such as for drug use. The term does not include a person in a mental institution for observation or any voluntary admission to a mental institution.

ATF has historically interpreted these provisions as constituting two distinct prohibitions. Each prohibition represents a separate disqualification. For example, a “commitment” means a formal commitment, not a voluntary stay. Excluded are stays for observation only. Nor does the term include a stay in a mental institution that never involved any form of adjudication by a lawful authority. However, a stay that began as a voluntary stay may be subsequently transformed into a disqualifying stay if a court, board, or other lawful authority makes a determination that the person is a danger to self or others. Moreover, a voluntary stay that is by itself not disabling could be later converted into a formal commitment and therefore be disabling.

For purposes of a Federal firearms disability, ATF interprets “adjudicated mental defective” to include anyone adjudicated to be a “danger to him or herself,” “a danger to others,” or lacking “the mental capacity to contract or manage their own affairs.” For purposes of Federal law, “danger” means any danger, not simply “imminent” or “substantial” danger as is often required to sustain an involuntary commitment under State law. Thus, for example, adjudication that a person was mentally ill and a danger to himself or others would result in Federal firearms disability, whether the court-ordered treatment was on an inpatient or outpatient basis. This is because the adjudication itself (a finding of danger due to mental illness) is sufficient to trigger the disability.

It should be emphasized that whatever adjudication procedure a State employs, the Constitution requires certain guarantees of due process. In order for a particular commitment order to qualify as a prohibiting commitment, ATF historically has required that traditional protections of due process be present, including adequate notice, an opportunity to respond, and a right to counsel. Such protections are important because whether a person has been adjudicated a mental defective or committed to a mental institution, the firearms disability is permanent.

We recognize that the procedures that result in a person being prohibited vary widely under State law and we encourage each of you to work closely with ATF to determine whether your statutory or regulatory mental health commitment or adjudication procedures under a particular set of facts might result in a determination that qualifies as a Federal prohibition.

We appreciate the interest that Federal, State, and local law enforcement and other stakeholders have in improving the enforcement of our nation’s firearms laws, and ATF stands ready to assist the States in improving their efforts to ensure information on disqualified persons is collected and provided to the NICS system. Questions or concerns about any of these issues may be directed to your local ATF field office.

http://www.atf.treas.gov/press/2007press/050907open-letter-to-states-attorneys-general.htm
 
Talk about a lousy idea -- legal disability would deter a lot of bipolar folks from seeking professional help!
 
Wasn't Cho only committed for observation and under these prohibitions would've still been able to purchase what he did?
 
"Talk about a lousy idea -- legal disability would deter a lot of bipolar folks from seeking professional help!"

Seeking help is voluntary treatment - whether inpatient or outpatient. The ATF only prohibits possession by those involuntarily committed, found not guilty by reason of insanity, etc.

___________

"Probably things like the Social Security board. They can also commit people in a similar fashion."

No they can't. But they can determine that a person receiving a disability check is not able to manage their own funds and appoint a Payee.

"Social Security's Representative Payment Program provides financial management for the Social Security and SSI payments of our beneficiaries who are incapable of managing their Social Security or SSI payments.
Generally, we look for family or friends to serve in this capacity.

When friends and family are not able to serve as payee, Social Security looks for qualified organizations to be a representative payee."

John
 
This is bull****, as someone with a father who was bipolar, and a firearms owner, now I will refuse to get checked for bipolar disorder or buy any prozac. This is just another form of control.
 
A summary of lessons learned will be reported back to the President with recommendations about how the Federal Government, working in conjunction with State and local partners, can prevent such tragedies from happening in the future.

Except the real solution of concealed carry will not be on the table. The notion that they can literally "prevent such tragedies " is absurd.

Cho's record was expunged, so they will have to put a stop to that too.
In hindsight, obviously the judgment was questionable, but without judicial review this regulation is a brainless trap. I liken it to being accountable for all the stupid things one did as a youth, a lifetime curse and no point in trying to mend ones ways. Next we will have judges and social workers avoiding committal because of the long term consequences. Of course, that would rely on them appreciating that losing the right of self defense was a very big deal.
 
bad language

My take.

It defines a mental defective, but does not specify that you must lack the mental capacity to manage your affairs AS A RESULT OF BEING MENTALLY ILL, therefore I read the following

" Each of these terms is defined by Federal regulation at 27 C.F.R. § 478.11 as follows:
ADJUDICATED AS A MENTAL DEFECTIVE
1. A determination by a court, board, commission, or other lawful authority that a person, as a result of ... condition, or disease: ...
2. Lacks the mental capacity to contract or manage his own affairs..."


Can be interpreted to mean lots of things, including a period of unconsciousness.
So you are hit by a drunk driver, and are not at fault, but are in a coma for 2 months and in Intensive Care battling for your life from blood loss, pulmonary contusions and cardiac contusions the whole time. During this period, you lack the capacity to do anything; let alone manage your affairs. When you finally wake up, your guns have been confiscated; and you aren't getting them back.

Seems absurd? Can you say with a straight face that the gov't has never loosley interpreted laws against gun ownership in the past and won't do so again?

I am not optomistic.

C-
 
I can say that I've never seen anyone lose any rights due to being in a coma for a month or two - and I've met quite a few at work during the past 30+ years. Worked with a man Monday who had been out for 10 days after a wreck as a matter of fact.

Now, if there was permanent brain damage that resulted in severely diminished capacity, then yes, I've seen them assigned a payee or guardian. But that's only after they failed to handle their own affairs and had extensive testing and evaluation, etc.

John
 
Great days we're living! This starts with purchase denial then leads to seizure. Now my question is...when they get these lists of people that aren't allowed to have firearms or ammunition...will they walk right up and ring the doorbell and ask nicely? or will they bust the door in at 2 a.m.? What if the listed person lives with another firearms owner? It seems they are determined to force the issue. So be it.
 
The following rant is not directed at anybody specific, but is a result of my utter frustration on one thread after another.

IT'S NOT ABOUT THE FREAKING DIAGNOSIS YOU GET WHEN YOU GO LOOKING FOR HELP AT THE DOCTOR'S OFFICE OR HOSPITAL. NOT, NOT, NOT.

IT'S ABOUT LEGAL INVOLVEMENT - IN OTHER WORDS THE COURT, A COURT, SOME COURT-KIND-OF-JUDGE HAS TO RULE YOU ARE OUT TO LUNCH AND NEED INVOLUNTARY TREATMENT BECAUSE YOU CAN'T TAKE CARE OF YOURSELF.

INVOLUNTARY MEANS THE LEGAL SYSTEM MAKES YOU GO GET IT. THIS IS THE ONE THAT THE BATFE CARES ABOUT

VOLUNTARY MEANS YOU GO SEE A COUNSELOR, PSYCHOLOGIST, PSYCHIATRIST OR ADMIT YOURSELF TO A TREATMENT FACILITY OR HOSPITAL. THE BATFE DOESN'T CARE ABOUT THIS ONE.

Thank you. I feel better now. Until the next thread anyway.

John
 
You know, the law already says all of this. There's nothing really new in any of it.

It's just that there're only 22 (one source says 23) states that report ANY mental health info to NICS. The reason being, IIRC, as a result of lawsuits it was decided that states can't be forced to report the info if there isn't money in place to pay for the reporting system.

Of the states that do report mental health info (the legally adjudicated kind), they all appear to be doing it differently. Witness Virginia's recent problem and Virginia has provided almost HALF of the mental health info in the NICS system.

John
 
Interesting Viewpoint

Isn't it interesting that the viewpoint is . . .

. . . wait for it . . .

. . . that mental illness is incurable.


Yes, I know, that may not be completely obvious from what's written.

But if you think about it . . . and slowly read what they've written . . . the conclusion is pretty simple: the people making the rules believe that mental illness is incurable.

I wonder where they got that idea from?
 
the people making the rules believe that mental illness is incurable.

I wonder where they got that idea from?

Obviously not via consultation with any suitably qualified and reputable internet sources... lest they be aware that mental illness is in fact non-existent.

*YAWN*
 
Seems to me many Vets will get disqualified as any mental health issue handled by the VA will be considered as one of their exceptions to the disqualification by a Judge.

Dangerous to Self or others leaves it wide open.

Note they said Permanent.
 
I used to work in the mental health field and you'd be surprised how many people went in for a "few days" and ended up being forced to stay. Interestingly, they were "cured" and discharged on the day their insurance coverage ran out. It's so common we had a name for it - the 30 day cure. (This applies more to the private mental health and substance abuse facilities than the public sector.)

It is really bad with rich/insured parents dumping/commiting their adoloscent kids everytime they go on vacation. One lady would bring in her teenage girl whenever her husband was out of town for the weekend so she could party and bring men home!

It's a shame to now see people lose their rights for a life-time (and not just a month) due to an industries' greed rather than a valid reason.
 
Af few questions,

1) If I read the ATF release correctly (and I'm not certain abut that I am not fluent in administratese) the perpatrator of the VT-Massacre ( I refuse to give him the fame he wanted and the media gave him:mad: ) the legally he could own a gun because the committment that was done did not have due process.

Is the above summary correct?

2) Did anyone else notice the underlined portion of the release?
In order for a particular commitment order to qualify as a prohibiting commitment, ATF historically has required that traditional protections of due process be present, including adequate notice, an opportunity to respond, and a right to counsel.

I can think of several interpetations of the above from the innocus to really alarming.

NukemJim
 
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