titanium sword

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mike6975

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i know it's not a knife,but i was thinkin of one about 28-30" with a 11" tsuka,i know you can't put an edge on titanium but what about a thicker blade,with a double right-side grind like a phil hartsfield blade or similar.i wonder if halpren titanium could do the bulk of the work,and i finish it up?.pics below are for reference.




Respectfully,



mike
 

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Making a sword out of titanium is like making a sword out of steel with ZERO heat treatment.

A thicker blade would make it more of a cleaving device than a sword.

The only advantages for using titanium are lower weight and corrosion resistance, which translates to speed and less maintenance; you lose durability and ease of manipulation (from a manufacturing standpoint). Titanium is more expensive, too.

And finally, if you can't put an edge on it, what's the point?

The other end of the spectrum would be using ceramic for a sword. FANTASTICALLY sharp, but the instant you hit a bone, the entire blade shatters.

There's a reason steel is used. :)
 
Making a sword out of titanium is like making a sword out of steel with ZERO heat treatment.

That's a pretty good description of it except you toss in the other problem that part of an edged sword's benefit comes from the momentum of the swing. Low mass means lower momentum.
 
I suppose a titanium-steel laminate sandwich could be made, but I'm not sure what the point would be.

John
 
More than likely it's a Ti coating on the blade that allows one to use rust-friendly carbon steels but keeps the blade from corroding.
 
hey people

i appreciate everybodies input and help i love this forum and a hankering for short fast no nonsense lil maintenance swords.for house or hotel.anybody got any ideas


Respectfully,

mike:evil::D
 
thats a good thought what about those cold steel machetes?,but i still like a sword though:D
 
Kasumi Titanium coated blade
note they say "Ti coated".

So far no one has produced a Ti-alloy blade that is comparable to steel. Ti coatings, Ti laminates, sure. Ti alloys just don't hold an edge.
 
I'll try to answer your question in lieu of hso's response.

What do you mean, "how they work?"

I can assure you they do not cut like steel. It looks cool, but it's not designed as a working blade.
 
mdao,

I'll second "Waddayamean", but give an impression.

I have one of Warren Thomas's Ti/CF composite blade folders. It's one of my favorite knives because of the feather weight, the carbon fiber and the fact that it will cut. But it has to have a very steep bevel and it doesn't hold an edge well. 6Al4V in beta phase just won't hold an edge like steel. Now, since it isn't an EDC and it sits at the top of a very small niche (ultralight non-steel knives) I like it (and because I'm a knife junkie that loves gizmos). Did I mention that they're blisteringly expensive?

Since I haven't handled Warrens Japanese inspired blades I can't tell you a thing about that sword. Since I do know about the materials he's using I can tell you that you probably won't get many (< 1 or 2) cuts out of it, but that's not the point of the exercise. He's making a very difficult to produce item that doesn't have a practical application (outside of William Gibson fantasies). It is high tech art (that would lop your hand off).

You can make any soft metal cut once. You can make it heavy enough with a sturdy enough bevel to maybe cut more than once. Humans made knives and axes out of copper and bronze before we discovered iron and steel. Bronze swords killed many a warrior, but that doesn't make them comparable to steel. Ti alloys aren't comparable to steel blades either even if their much more high tech than a bronze age sword.
 
I would like to correct one or two mistaken statements that have been made in prior entries here.

Quote: That's a pretty good description of it except you toss in the other problem that part of an edged sword's benefit comes from the momentum of the swing. Low mass means lower momentum.

FALSE. That is true of a baseball bat, not an effective sword. The cut comes from the energy of the swing, not the momentum. A cut should swing rapidly across the target, not straight into it like an axe. (Which is why katanas and many other swords are curved. In fact this is the whole point of the existence of swords... otherwise you might as well just use an axe.)

Velocity is key. Momentum is mass times velocity, energy is mass times the square of the velocity. Reducing the mass allows one to swing the blade faster, increasing the velocity of the swing, resulting in much more energy in proportion.

Further, if you have had instruction in the use of the katana, you would know that momentum is your enemy. The reason that you are taught to pull back to limit your swing is to combat the momentum of the sword, which could otherwise become stuck in tough parts like bone and cartilage. You pull back so that you can swing again rapidly, without getting stuck. So momentum actually detracts from the usefulness of the blade, and students spend a great deal of time learning to counter it.

A lighter blade can move more swiftly and thus do more damage in a short period of time, which is why a light sword, and even sometimes a foil, have been proven to consistently beat a Claymore in one-on-one, unarmored combat. It is the presence of armor that dictates heavier swords, which have the momentum to batter through the armor. Those are doing more bashing than cutting, and so the different design.

Also, sword experts will tell you that even with the ability to cut with the length of the sword, the decisive action (again in unarmored combat) is usually made by the tip of the sword... which again argues for speed and light weight versus momentum.

Most of the time, you will not face armored opponents.

The main problem here is that a good sharp edge tends to be brittle, and once a blade is chipped, its structure may be compromised. But solutions are possible, if one is willing to think outside the box.

The ultimate in unarmored-combat sword technology would probably be something like a (least brittle as possible) titanium-alloy backbone, with a large number of small, replaceable, bolt-on edge pieces of either titanium nitride or silicon nitride.

For the price there is not much better than nitride, but for utmost hardness, diamond is the king. And that is doable, too, for a price: not long ago, a major manufacturer of razor blades in the United States offered a diamond-coated blade. (No joke... they gave it a microscopically-thin coat of diamond, using a sputtering technique often used for microchip manufacturing.) These were the finest razor blades ever made. I know, because I used them. A single blade would last months. But after about 2 years, they were pulled from the market because not enough of them were being sold... buyers were only using a few, and word was not getting out to others. Too bad. If they would have stuck it out... or advertised more... they would have eventually owned the whole market!!! They WERE that good. And the diamond coat was thin enough that the blade remained flexible.

The same thing could be done with a sword... but it would probably not be practical to coat the whole blade, and even if you did you could, you would still have the chipping issue.

Swords have traditionally been made of one piece of steel. But this is what I mean by thinking out of the box. Samurais may have glamor and respect, but again it has been said many times that modern steel technology has stepped far beyond the old hand-folded steel forgings. (I should mention here, too, that despite what one poster said, when folding the steel a "flux" of charcoal dust and sometimes borax was sprinkled on the surface before the fold, which assisted the weld and did indeed improve the carbon content beyond what was otherwise lost.) In any case, why not up the ante, and take it beyond "modern steel" to even newer materials? Plain steel today is for wusses with no imagination.

For many years now, industrial machinists have used bolt-on Nitride blades for cutting and shaving even the hardest steels. (For those of you who are not already familiar with the idea, nitride inserts are a lot like "carbide" inserts in saw blades, but even better.) Why not borrow the same technology? Seems to me it would be a pretty easy thing to do.

Replaceable edge segments with a hard coat (nitride or even diamond) solve the major problems, and would make for a truly magnificent piece of cutting engineering. A world-class edge that would be maintainable as long as sections could be replaced. But it would demand quite a price at first, and it would probably look more like engineering than art.

But on the other hand, to me, good engineering IS art.
 
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Any idea how these things work?

Warren Thomas Ti/CF sword

It looks to me like a gimick, Carbon fiber is NOT a good choice for any surface that will be subjected to impacts. The benefit you gain from using a composite like Carbon Fiber, is that you get a great strength to weight ratio (lighter and stronger than steel) Strength is a measure of how much stress a material can handle before it yields. It is more resilient than steel, but this greater hardness makes it brittle (same reason the "best" kitchen knives are made of ceremic, due to their being harder than metal, but crack under impact loadings) That is the main compromise you face with materials, as a material becomes less elastic, they become more brittle.


For the price there is not much better than nitride, but for utmost hardness, diamond is the king. And that is doable, too, for a price: not long ago, a major manufacturer of razor blades in the United States offered a diamond-coated blade. (No joke... they gave it a microscopically-thin coat of diamond, using a sputtering technique often used for microchip manufacturing.) These were the finest razor blades ever made. I know, because I used them. A single blade would last months. But after about 2 years, they were pulled from the market because not enough of them were being sold... buyers were only using a few, and word was not getting out to others. Too bad. If they would have stuck it out... or advertised more... they would have eventually owned the whole market!!! They WERE that good. And the diamond coat was thin enough that the blade remained flexible

The same goes for trying to coat a blade with diamonds, while it is good for cutting surfaces, (does not dull due to it being harder) it is a poor choice for any surface that will experience impacts, such as a sword. Sure if you just use it to cut things it will remain sharp forever, but if you hit it against anything, your diamond coating will crack. Decreasing the thickness of the coating doesnt change its mechanical properties.

Steel has been used for centuries because of it has a good compromise of strength and ductility. It is not from "lack of thinking outside the box" it comes from having something that works. Just because one material is stronger than another, doesn't mean it is better.

While titanium is lighter, and stronger than steel, it is almost impossible to machine, which would make it cost restrictive to make a sword from.
 
Until the speed becomes significantly higher than what we'd be able to generate with a swing I'm not sure that the energy/momentum argument has the importance that it might with bullets.

Blade/edge design probably has more impact when you're talking about lightweight materials. Even the "razor sword" cut well enough to maim or kill as a hacking tool and it had the advantage of being thin steel. Same for a machete. The speed differences between a machete or the razor sword and a Ti version shouldn't amount to much, but we're talking about a theoretical sword vs existing light machetes/swords.
 
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