Short swords

[Coronach]

I was just skimming the net, looking for information on short swords. By the term, I mean bladed weapons (either double or single-edged) of intermediate length, longer than daggers and bowie knives, yet shorter than your standard sword. Historical examples that spring to mind are the Roman Gladius and Spatha, and to a lesser extent the Greek copis (and subsequent Kukuri in Nepal).

I was not coming up with much straight-bladed stuff besides the gladius and spatha, however, and comparatively few places offer modern repros for sale that are not gladii or spathae (sp?).

I was thinking that, from a martial arts perspective, these would be interesting weapons in this current age of limited-to-nonexistent armor and firearms. It would be a hand to hand weapon that would have a greater reach than a knife, the killing potential of a sword, yet have a lot less weight and bulk than the traditional full-sized sword. It would not encumber a firearms user overly much, and would not have to compete with longer weapons, shields, or armor if it was employed.

And yes, before you say it, I am totally daydreaming. This is an exercise in logical thought and curiosity, nothing more. Guns have the warfare and personal defense gig sewn up. Blades are completely ancillary.

So, the questions are:

1. What sites would have information on the use of such weapons?

2. What places would have such items for sale, or at least have pretty pictures to look at?

For reference, I'm talking about blades circa 20" in length, not unlike the old SMLE or long M1 Garand bayonets in general size (but more optimized for actual use when not attached to the end of a rifle).

Thanks,
Mike

 

[Kjay]

I suggest you go over to http://www.swordforum.com/ or http://www.myarmoury.com/home.php for info on swords and use. There are a number of good makers - try http://www.christianfletcher.com/, http://www.christianfletcher.com/, http://www.angustrimdirect.com/index.html, and http://www.armor.com/.

Since you like shorties here's a pic...

 

[Coronach]

AH!

Angus Trim got another website. Excellent. His old one was 404ing all the time. That's why.

Mike

 

[Devonai]

Check out Museum Replicas Limited if you haven't already. I've been drooling over their catalog for fifteen years.

Personally, I wish we lived in a world where men could carry any blade they wanted in the open in addition to any firearm they might be carrying. I'm thinking about doing a short film about a society that uses firearms for self-defense but routinely uses swords to settle disputes of honor (i.e., formal duels with firearms are frowned upon). Sort of like 19th century Europe in a modern setting. Might make arguments over parking spaces more interesting.

 

[gripper]

Any here recall the old "trench sword"??...As I recall ,they were issued ( in limited numbers) to the Welsh troopies in WWI.The blade was kind of a spear pointed leaf or paddle shaped double edge ( like a smatchet),maybe 2 feet in length.A few years back at a gunshow, someone had a sample for sale. I was intertested, but my cash was not sufficient to the purchase.

 

[NMshooter]

I guess the ubitquitous machete is not quite a short sword?

Can't really stab with one anyway.

 

[Cosmoline]

Any here recall the old "trench sword"??...As I recall ,they were issued ( in limited numbers) to the Welsh troopies in WWI.The blade was kind of a spear pointed leaf or paddle shaped double edge ( like a smatchet),maybe 2 feet in length.A few years back at a gunshow, someone had a sample for sale. I was intertested, but my cash was not sufficient to the purchase.

Good memory there.

Ontario Knife makes some very long combat blades that are similar to these.

 

[Powderman]

For a good fighting sword, you would do well with the traditional wakizashi. Get a good one, made of folded steel. They are pricey, but then good work often costs good money. Take a look at www.bugei.com

 

[Skofnung]

Those A-Trim Short Swords are awesome.

If I lived in a socialist paradise like Great Britain where self defense weapons are limited, one of those A-Trims and a small steel buckler would be my "bump in the night" tools.

A broad bladed short sword or dagger has much going for it up close.

Luckily I live where I can depend on more modern weapons.

The only site that I would be able to add (atop those that Kjay posted) would be Albion Armorers. I've dealt with them in the past and highly reccomend them. Their Gladii (sp?) are without equal IMO.

www.albion-swords.com

 

[goon]

I have never owned one and I don't know a whole lot about these guys other than that their name stuck in my head after I thumbed through a knife catalog several years ago.
http://www.edmfknives.com/page3.html

 

[hso]

The barong is essentially a single edge short sword and both the weapon and training in it's use is readily available.

I've got both the Cas Iberia and the Cold Steel. Both are excellent pieces. The Cas is lighter and faster while the CS is heavier.

 

[Coronach]

I was just thinking that the traditional wakazashi was about the size I had mentioned.

Hmm.

I prefer straight-edged western style blades....

But the eastern blades sure are pretty...



Mike

PS yes, the gun-owners cry: "get both!"

 

[middy]

Against unarmored opponents with no long weapons I suspect a large bowie knife will serve just as well as a short sword.

But don't let that stop you from buying one.

 

[Kjay]

Against unarmored opponents with no long weapons I suspect a large bowie knife will serve just as well as a short sword.

But don't let that stop you from buying one.

I don't want to downplay the effectiveness of a large knife in such a setting but IMHO a short sword is BIG leap in potential hurt. Here's a size comparison of large knife (Boker Smatchet) - short sword (early Albion Gladius).

 

[LegendaryItaliano]

For a good fighting sword, you would do well with the traditional wakizashi. Get a good one, made of folded steel. They are pricey, but then good work often costs good money. Take a look at www.bugei.com

Bugei is a well know company for Japanese styled weaponry but as you said it is a bit pricey. A bit too pricey in my opinion since you are only getting products by hanwei in china.
The thing I really wanted to comment on was your reccomendation of folded steel. There is really no benifit to folded steel in todays day and age. Bugei and others offer folded steel blades more for appearence rather than function. The purpose of folding steel in ancient times was to homogenize the steel being used. In japan tamehagane was the iron ore used to make steel but in its raw form was full of impurities that had to be removed. Folded was the method for that removal. Today, steel is already homogenized not containing the impurities once worried about. A monosteel blade is no less durable than a folded blade, in fact it is more likely for the folded blade to have flaws since there is more human effort in making it.

As for the original posters search, the links already given really encompass the best companies. The only one I can ad is kris cutlery found at:http://kriscutlery.com

Good luck

 

[El Tejon]

In China one finds the deer horn knives, the mother son knives (aka willow leaf swords, 8 Cut swords, etc.), short version of the dao (broadsword), short versions of the "horse chopping saber" (aka, the katana [brought to Japan by pirates--aaarrr!]), the iron ruler (aka the sai), judge's pens (sharpened iron rods), or the double daggers (in northern styles, dirk- sized knives).

More at: http://www.shaolin-society.co.uk/weapons/earth.php

For more about the Chinese experience with short swords (and weaponry) I recommend: http://shop.store.yahoo.com/ymaa/anchinweapma.html

 

[hso]

BLADE LENGTH: 15“
HANDLE LENGTH: 5 3/4“
OVERALL LENGTH: 21 1/4“
WEIGHT: 1lb 2oz

BLADE LENGTH: 25 1/2“
HANDLE LENGTH: 7 3/4“
OVERALL LENGTH: 33 3/4“
WEIGHT: 2lb 5oz

Ymmmmm

BLADE LENGTH: 21 1/4“
HANDLE LENGTH: 6 1/2“
OVERALL LENGTH: 27 1/2“
WEIGHT: 1lb 5oz

 

[tellner]

Kris Cutlery is another excellent place. Cecil Quirino is incredibly knowledgeable about the bladed weapons of the Malay world. For instruction, find any decent Filipino or Indonesian martial arts teacher.

 

[Coronach]

*writes notes*

Thanks, guys.

Mike

 

[Boats]

A short sword that has been intriguing me for awhile now is this one:




Cold Steel 1917 Cutlass Reproduction.

Weight: 33.7 oz
Blade Thick: 1/5"
Blade Length: 25"
Handle: 4 5/8" long. Hardwood
Steel: 1050 Carbon Steel
Overall Length: 29 5/8"
Sheath: Leather sacabbard w/ brass & copper fittings
Guard is stamped and spot welded 18 gauge carbon steel that would probably withstand striking one's opponent in the face in a close quarters melee.

They also make a 31" saber reproduction, thus making available the US armed forces' last two fighting swords to everyone in a user form.

 

[Devonai]

Gah, I need more disposable income and a supply of fresh watermelons!

 

[MatthewVanitas]

Any reccs on a no-frills wakizashi?

It's a purchase I've idly considered in the past but put on the backburner.

Is there any decent wakizashi, not a toy, but not tricked out with lacquer, inlay, and other cost-adding doodads?

That is to say, a wakizashi that's a well-shaped piece of decent quality steel with a comfortable grip?

IIRC, one of the gun rags had a write-up a couple years back as to an American workshop producing their own Japanese-style swords of decent quality and design, though untraditional in contruction technique, for a few hundred.

Any hints in that direction, or is it just toys, decent quality imports, and extremely pricey?

-MV

 

[Devonai]

If you can find the "full tang" daito sets that are out there, I think you might be pleased. I have the katana and while it is unusually heavy (4 pounds), it is built like a tank. Unfortunately mine came semi-sharp but a competent person could remedy that.

Edit: Bud-K has an item you might like. It's a "ninja" style blade, but it comes fully sharp. It's larger than a shoto but smaller than a katana.

http://budk.com/product.asp?pn=UC1130S

 

[LegendaryItaliano]

If you can find the "full tang" daito sets that are out there, I think you might be pleased. I have the katana and while it is unusually heavy (4 pounds), it is built like a tank. Unfortunately mine came semi-sharp but a competent person could remedy that.

Edit: Bud-K has an item you might like. It's a "ninja" style blade, but it comes fully sharp. It's larger than a shoto but smaller than a katana.

http://budk.com/product.asp?pn=UC1130S

Whoa whoa whoa........hold on now.
We first need to determine what Matthew's intent is with the blade he is seeking. If he intends to do anyting other than hang it on a wall I strongly disagree with the purchase of anything from BudK, as the stainless steel used in such products is very brittle and extremely dangerous. In fact as a rule SS should not be used for swords unless you are one of the very few smiths that can heat treat it correctly. The metallurgical grain structure of SS is to large making it prone to breaking under lateral stresses. This is ok for knives because of the relativly short blades and thicknesses.
However, if Matthew intends on using his blade, it should be forged of a quality 10XX or spring steel. The blades on my site can be used as an example http://home.earthlink.net/~legends1394/
I have blades made from a modified 1086 steel, W-1 steel and a forgewelded 1095/1060 steel. These are just a few high quality steels appropriate for use in swords. We I reffer to 10XX steels, the XX's reffer to the carbon content.
Here is a link to a video of what can happen with cheap SS swords, and while it is listed for its comedic value, it should be really taken seriously.
http://www.jokaroo.com/funnyvideos/katana.html

To answer Matthews question about a low cost no frills wak, I would go with one from http://kriscutlery.com

These are made from 5160 spring steel and are VERY tough blades. They are considered work horses and are very reasonable priced.

Hope I helped.

 

[hso]

If you can find the "full tang" daito sets that are out there, I think you might be pleased. I have the katana and while it is unusually heavy (4 pounds), it is built like a tank. Unfortunately mine came semi-sharp but a competent person could remedy that.

Edit: Bud-K has an item you might like. It's a "ninja" style blade, but it comes fully sharp. It's larger than a shoto but smaller than a katana.

http://budk.com/product.asp?pn=UC1130S

There's little chance that any sword from Bud K is anything but a sword-shaped wall hanger that would be dangerous to swing much less attempt to cut with. It would be like buying a Raven, but made in Rwanda.

Kris Cutlery and Cas Iberia are the companies that make the least expensive usable swords (I can't believe I forgot KC :banghead: ) 21" Espada ye daga

or a 19" baselard