Wanna go to school, which one, which class, and why?

Steve, we are very fortunate that we have many fine instructors teaching today.

As to course, I would start with the pistol, but that's me. I'm an urban type who carries a pistol. The only time I have rifles out is at the range, dry practice or class. I do not understand the guys who take the "high speed low drag" carbine or "sniper" classes and then carry a M36 in their suit pocket at home. Their money, their choice, just doesn't make sense to me.

If you are a hairy-chested Western type, who totes around a rifle all day to ward off bear attacks, then your circumstances are different. A rifle class would be in your best interests.

As to which school, it depends on one's circumstances. If I could not leave my office, wife, or family for long, I would check into one of the traveling instructors, foremost among those would be Awerbuck. Red is a solid gun culture area; I would think many would stop in some town there.

If I were an overeducated yuppie scum type with no kids and disposible income that the Indiana Department of Revenue and the IRS graciously allow me to keep and can, men in black dresses allowing, can set his own schedule, then hit the big schools. TR foremost, because of Clint's leaving for Oreygun, among these.

HTH. See you in skul someday.

I'm traditional, so if money is no object, I would pick JC's Gunsite. He is the daddy of the pistol finishing skools.

Steve,

I've taken a lot of classes, all of them at the Firearms Academy of Seattle (which incidentally isn't in Seattle, but about an hour and a half south of there).

The only travelling instructor I've taken a class from is Jim Cirillo. I highly recommend his classes, both for the shooting skills improvement and for the fabulous stories which really help to build basic defensive mindset. However, I wouldn't recommend one of his classes as your very first class experience, simply because he works more on 'alternative' skills than he does on the basics. I'm not sure that he would take anyone who hasn't got at least one class under the belt already.

Links to stuff I've written about classes:

Jim Cirillo: http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=23371

FAS 2, 3, 4, and other FAS classes (lots of links in the following post): http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?s=&postid=252127#post252127

FAS-5 (an advanced class): http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=31233

I would probably recommend you start by taking one of Massad Ayoob's LFI classes if he is ever near your area. The shooting component in LFI-1 is similiar to the shooting portion of FAS-2, but the real value of the LFI class is from the legal and ethical portions of the class time. I haven't taken the LFI class only because it never has worked with my schedule and budget at the same time (that is, one year it worked with my schedule and not my budget, and the next year it was within my budget but impossible to schedule... maybe next year). Nevertheless, from being a range bum for awhile now, I can tell you that everyone I have talked to who has taken one of these classes can't seem to say enough good about them.

If you had an LFI-1 class under your belt, you could come up here to take an FAS-345 combo class next summer -- six days of shooting fun in the beautiful Pacific Northwest! -- and visit me at the same time. Or you could come up for just a weekend and take the FAS-2 class. FAS-2 is, like I said, roughly equivalent to the shooting portion of LFI-1, but LFI-1 is both longer and more expensive because the classroom portion is much more in depth.

If LFI is never near your area, there are lots of other travelling instructors, and I've heard a lot of good about most of them. Jim Cirillo absolutely raved about Andy Stanford's classes and highly recommends him.

I haven't taken any rifle classes so I can't tell you anything about those. I did take a one-day shotgun class that was really a blast and a great value for the money.

Prices: I don't know what other schools charge. Around here, the local classes are $225 for a 2-day class (18 hours) and usually $350 for the same 2 days from a travelling instructor. I know the big-name schools cost a bit more per day than that, and that most of their classes are weeklong rather than 2-day. You need to be sure to factor ammo into your costs (FAS classes seem to run about 500 rounds per weekend and I'm not sure how that compares to other schools). Plus, if you travel, you have to factor in your hotel room, plane tickets (or gasoline), and meals on the road. Plus, of course, for anything but a local weekend class, you'll have to take time off from work too. So the cost of the class itself is only a baseline -- unless the school is local to you and it's a weekend class, you can figure you're going to spend at least that same amount again, or more, on related costs.

Disclaimer for everyone wondering, "Is pax on commission from FAS or what??": I'm not on commission or anything like that. But I do volunteer as an assistant instructor for the free handgun safety seminars at FAS, and Marty & Gila are neighbors and good friends of mine. They've taught me how to shoot well and I'm grateful for it.

pax

When asked to summarize a recent gunfight, Bill Hickock (known for his short answers) was quoted at saying simply, "He missed. I didn't." Bill correctly concluded that his point was made and that additional details would be superfluous. There is no substitute for surgical accuracy, no matter how exciting the situation. "Lots of shooting" doesn't end fights. Hits do! -- John Farnam

Check John Farnam's schedule to see if he's coming your way soon. Money well spent.


Take the pistol class - you know it's the right thing to do!

Powderhorn Ranch

Its in CO. (Between Gunnison and Lake City)
It is the best basic defensive education you can get.
His hospitality is with out reproach.
His food is first rate.
Lodging and all meals are included.
You stay with Gregg Williams and his instructors on site during your stay. Eat with them, talk with them. You can bug them with questions from early in the morning until late at night.
Greg and his staff are all top notch and can make you do amazing things with a handgun. (They usually incorporate shotgun in their week long seminars too)
They cover everything: Anatomy/physiology, psychology, law, tactics.
Unarmed, impact weapons, edged weapons, firearms. The detail they can go into is amazing.
Gregg is also one of the most interesting and humorous guy I've ever met. His classes are fast paced and you shoot ALOT.
Best education and most fun I've ever had.

Check him out at the link above and tell him Smoke sent ya.

Personally, I'd start with a two-day defensive handgun class. Whether that class is from OPS, John Farnham, Louis Awerbuck, etc, is less important than getting started.

The reason I reccomend a two-day class over starting with a weeklong event is two-fold; First, cost: You can attend several two-day training sessions with different instructors for the same amount or less than it will cost you to travel to a large fixed facility school. Second,I think it's important to train with as many different instructors as you can, so stretching your training dollars by doing more short format classes will get you a broader perspective on this whole "training thing".

FYI, the norm for mobile trainers is approximatley $150 per training day ($300 for a weekend course). Some will be slightly higher (John Farnham tends to be in the $395-$450 range), some will be slightly lower (Insights charges $225 for weekend classes in Seattle, but $300 for mobile. OPS is a whopping $295 for a weekend course [How's that for a savings?])
Fixed facility schools tend to cost more, because they have a physical infrastructure to maintain. They generally run around $200 per training day/$1000 for a 5-day block. And some guys, like Kelly McCann, get even more. His last Individual Protective Measures Course ran $1550 plus expenses for a relatively light week (around 36 contact hours).

Mr Gomez has some good points. A two or three day class maybe the way to go. Get your feet wet and see if its something you like doing. If you enjoy it and really get hooked like me and others, venture out to the "big" schools. I'm not sure where you are in Colorado, however I believe Gunsite isn't too far away.

Its always good to be well grounded in the basics: marksmanship 101, drawing, reloading, malfunctions, threat left/right/rear. Then you can move on to the more "exotic" stuff. Gunsite, Thunderranch, BlackwaterLodge, etc are good places to get the basics drilled in. Of course, they also offer advanced courses.

In Colorado you might want to try the following two persons: Ron Avery and Bennie Cooley Jr. Ron generally trains at the NRA Whittington Center in New Mexico, however he does do some classes in Colorado; which I believe is his home state. Bennie is in Idaho, but travels quite frequently. Both are world class shooters and Bennie has numerous 3 Gun World Championships under his belt. He is also very tactically oriented being a member of DOE's special response team. I recommend Bennie very highly.

http://www.practicalshootingacad.com (ron avery)
http://www.benniecooley.com
http://www.blackwaterusa.com
http://www.thunderranchinc.com
http://www.gunsite.com

I highly reccomend LFI-1. It's the equivilant of a two-day firearms class and a two-day seminar on legal aspects of the use of deadly force. I thought I know all about this stuff, but I learned a lot in both parts of the class.

Unlike many, probably most, I decided to start training with firearms just because I enjoy it. I figured, what better way for me to spend a vacation than by doing what I enjoy doing the most ? The AR15 was what I enjoyed shooting most, so I decided to start my training with the AR15. So far I have taken Guniste 223 (Basic Carbine), Gunsite 556 (Advanced Carbine), and Front Sight Practical Rifle. In addition I took Guniste 250 (Basic Handgun). Although I was primarily interested in the carbine, at Gunsite you are very limited in the courses you can take without the 250 course as a prerequisite, although you can take the 223 (basic carbine) class without 250. I fully understand the reasoning behind this. There is a lot of stuff you learn in 250 that gives you a basic understanding that carries over to the other courses. I took 223 without first taking 250 but looking back, ideally you would be better off with 250 as your first course to get the most out of the others.
Why Gunsite ? For me, there were a number of reasons. One is that I had heard of Gunsite since childhood. If I am not mistaken, it was one of the first schools of this kind. And, many, if not most of the big name instructors can trace their roots back to Gunsite. Many of the top "traveling" instructors also teach at Gunsite. Second, Gunsite is an easy drive from where I live. I can drive there in five hours. Third, what made me first decide to begin formal training was a thread I read on TFL. I had the opportunity to discuss the matter with people who had been there. I knew what to expect, what equipment to bring, where to stay etc. so I wasn't heading into uncharted territory. Lastly, and this goes along with the first statements I made, I feel that Gunsite had the best instructors out there. A few of my instructors have been, Pat Rogers, Louis Awerbuck, Bill Murphy, Jeff Gonzales....................... All of the instructors that I have had at Gunsite have extensive practical experience in the techniques they are teaching. They have either had extensive military or law enforcement experience and in some cases, both. Many of them are currently working in those areas and teach at Gunsite on the side. They have seen what works from their own experience and that of their co-workers. Something that I found interesting at my last course (Gunsite 556). Over dinner I asked one of the instructors what he thought about one of the other major shools. His answer was that the guy that ran the school was a good friend of his, and the guy was everything he was supposed to be. But, his practical experience in the field was 20+ years old and his teaching reflected this. He wasn't using equipment and techniques that reflect the current state of the art.
I think you will find a carbine course at somewhere like Gunsite to be very different from your previous experience with formal match competition.
I personally think that the best way to go is to take a full week long course (five days). There is no way you can completely ingrain the techniques taught even in five days, but it helps. I find that things are only starting to get smooth after lunch on the third day. This also goes along with the idea that you can't have too much fun. When I am doing something that I really enjoy, I don't want it to end. Also, I believe that people taking a five day course are making a serious committment to their training. It isn't a matter of convience of an afterthought. Everyone there is serious about it and put their best effort forward because of the sacrifices they are making to be there.

I even got to meet Denny Hansen at my last class. He dropped by to show off one of his new toys.

Steve, I am going to give you completely different advise. You do not need to go to one of the "schools". If you have done the courses you talk about, your weapons manipulation is just fine. If you enroll in the schools, you will be $1000 poorer and spend most of your time shooting paper targets. Or, you will go through some silly shooting house with paper targets of bad guys.

You need to get some force on force training. Simunitions, airsoft, and paintball qualify. The beauty of this training is that you deal with dynamic opponents actively trying to kill you. Paintball is the most accessable and least expensive.

I have taken a dozen classes at the schools. Besides weapons manipulation skills, they are near worthless. They are there to make money and they have a cult like following of guys who don't know what better to do with their time or money. Kind of like Disneyland with guns.

Just play paintball one day. It will cost you $100 bucks. You will have fun and you will realize the absolute need for cover when some 10 year old eliminates you. Until you have trained with resisting opponents, you have not trained.

Dave, I agree with your theory on force on force training. That is probably the reason that Simunitions is on the curriculum at the big shooting schools. I know it is at Gunsite.
In my very humble opinion, I think that gun handling skills are very important. It is the foundation upon which the whole rest of the house is built. Again, my opinion only, I don't feel that most people have good weapons handling skills.

Simunitions sounds great. Probably even much better than paintball. My big concern is that you will spend hundreds of dollars to take this type of training at a Gunsite type school. You will spend two days there and maybe get 5-10 simulated gunfights. You can accomplish very good dynamic training with paintball for a fraction of the cost in one day.

AND, for training to really sink in, you need to do it over and over again for more than just one day. One class of simunitions is not good enough to build real retained skill. The cost and availability of Simunitions also prohibit it.

Once you have good gun handling skills, I think you would be better playing paintball every three or four weeks for a year or two. The skills you learn will retained better than a single weekend course.

Dave3006 made some very good points on tactics training. The only problem with paintball is you can't learn to reload, clear a malfunction, etc under stress (at least with your own weapons system). You can with simunitions. Yes, simunitions is exspensive, however its good training (I don't have much experience with airsoft). With sims you get to use your own gun, your own holster and other equipment. And, the best part is, you get to go against real live thinking, breathing, opponents. When you get shot, at least the training I do, you know it. I still have scars on my body from sims and paintballs.

I believe to become fully well rounded, you need to train in alot of different mediums. Square range live fire, dry fire, some sort of simunition/paintball/airsoft/etc, and even tactical simulators (they serve their purpose).

At the sametime, I still believe you need to make sure your properly reloading your gun, clearing the malfunction, etc. This can only be done by learning through square range, live fire training. The other thing these types of courses give you is an insight to mindset. Its difficult to teach this, however at least you can listen to some good instructors giving you the information.

My experience is that the class is five days and you do far less sim runs than you mention. However the more advanced the class, the less emphasis on basic gun handling and marksmanship on the square range and more emphasis is placed on the tactical use of the skills you already should have developed. The whole thing is a building process. You learn the basics; zeroing, basic marksmanship, gun handling skills, etc are taught in the basic courses. As you progress in your education you briefly review the basics and then concentrate on the shoot houses and sim runs.

I agree that buying your own equipment is the way to go for regular practice. I am looking into buying a couple airsoft guns for this very type of training. The reason for for my choosing Airsoft rather than paintball is that the guns are much closer to the real thing. But, I think it is a good idea to have good training on how professionals handle these situations. True, you can just wing it and learn as you go, but I would prefer to have some basis to build on. Why try to reinvent the wheel ? At one time or another, just about any possible senario has been drilled by the pros. They dissected the possibilities and determined the best course of action. When you do these shoot house and sims runs, you have your performance evaluated by a pro and then you have something new to go on.

Heck, Jeff, I think Airsoft will be the death knell for Simunitions. With Simunitions horrific company policies and considerable startup and ongoing costs, I think all but the most cash-flush agencies will be going the Airsoft route in the next few years. Particularly with airsoft manufacturers courting the training arena and bringing out new technology (like marking BBs that actually work and exact M4 clones marketed at Shot in the LEO section.)

Some great comments all around. I think we all agree FOF is practically manditory. I think each version of FOF has pros and cons. Therefore, as tetlyb pointed out, do them all.

The original poster mentioned he knew how to work his gun due to 3 gun matches ect.. I didn't recommend the "schools" because alot of the stuff they teach there is unrealistic. Take the so called tactical reload. First, you probably will never need it in civilian life. Second, if you ever do, you better be reloading your gun behind COVER. Third, if you are behind cover, you have time. No one will charge you because they can't see you and don't know what you are doing.

The schools are alot like martial arts. Some of the drills would work in real life. Some of the drills are there for the purpose of filling time and giving the student a challenge so he keeps coming back. The school makes more money this way. The goal for the student is to figure out when he knows the basics and get FOF training before his wallet need a tactical reload.

Dave, just like no one charged at Newhall or Miami?

Dave,

You make good points about the necessity of FOF training. But you speak as though static range drills, gun manipulation, and very expensive Simunitions training are the only things the schools teach. That is emphatically not so.

Every course I have ever taken has included a sizable classroom component which deals with moral and legal issues surrounding the use of deadly force. The value of such mindset training simply cannot be overemphasized -- nor can those who have gotten such teaching only from each other, online, really understand its value. It's not just the more egregious examples of bad advice you get elsewhere ("just drag the SOB back inside...!" being one of the worst) -- smart folks can avoid those. It's the concentrated study of good examples and being surrounded by people who are working through the same issues that make this so valuable and necessary.

As folks who have hung around online for a bit, you know what "Tueller Drill" means -- but can you document that you know, of your own experiential and certain knowledge, that almost every member of any random group of people can cover 20 feet in considerably less that 2 seconds? If you've been to a class, you can.

What do you say to the 911 operator after a deadly force incident? What do you say to police -- and why?

Do you know how to retain your weapon from someone who reaches for it? Do you know how to disarm a thug who sticks a gun in your face?

Can you document that you have training equivalent to, or better than, the weapons training that your local police have received?

If you've been to a class, you have access to flesh-and-blood people who will be willing and able to testify for you in a court of law that they were present on the day you were taught to handle your firearm in a responsible manner and who heard you say, aloud, that you never wanted to do this in real life if you could avoid it.

That's valuable stuff that you won't get from the teenagers playing paintball with you.

pax

I have over the past thirty years been one hundred percent in favor of Gun Control - achieved through proper stance, controlled breathing, and smooth trigger squeeze; applied repeatedly until the threat is neutralized. -- Fred D. Haggard

Maybe there might be a legal benefit in a post shooting situation. Showing you sought training could be helpful. Or, the jury could see you as a wanna be Rambo. Based on the demeanor of some of the gun school instructors, I could see it going either way.

The legalities of shoot/no shoot can be learned from a good book or two and common sense.

Schools are not worthless. I did not say that. I think they are overrated. Especially for the gun school groupie that has been a dozen or so times. For the original poster, FOF would be the next step. Unless he is rich and retired. Then, go to them all.

FoF is nice, but a rounded, adrenalin based, hard wired combat system is more valuable. If you are allowed to carry and you are in for just one class, this is what I would take.

Close Quarters Confrontations (Insights Training Centre):

InSights Training Center Instructors have taken their practical individual experience and together, spent the past six years developing a system that works. the problem with most system is there are to many decisions to make in to small a time period, it would be like carrying five guns all of a different type, shooting them all differently and trying to choose which one to use under the stress of combat. The saying goes "Beware of the man with one gun." Well, we say BEWARE OF THE INDIVIDUAL WITH ONE COMBAT SYSTEM! The person who knows without hesitation exactly what he is going to do in any armed or unarmed conflict. In this course you will become such a person.

You will learn: How to stun or disable your opponent while protecting yourself and drawing your handgun. How to fight your way out of a contact distance confrontation. How to use both lethal and nonlethal handgun retention techniques. What to do if you are knocked down, how to win from there, and how to fight your way back up. How to integrate unarmed, handgun, and other self-defense items into a total "use of force continuum" so that you respond with the right answer quickly. How to fluidly transition from lethal to nonlethal force.

In this course you will learn a full unarmed combat system and an integrated firearms combat system. The course can be physically demanding depending on how hard you try, but everyone should come regardless of age or physical condition. You will only be asked to do what you can. The course will make extensive use of striking bags and protective padded suits (FIST gear) and you be striking "opponents" with every thing you have in combat simulations.

"Three days with the Master are worth three years practicing alone."

Where's my gong?