Concerning HD shotguns: Pistol Grip Stock vs Standard stock

jbauch357 · Feb 12, 2009

jbauch357, why would anybody shoot 3 1/2 magnums in a PGO shotgun?

I figured if it was what I had loaded up for HD I better make sure I could handle it with the PGO and 18 1/2" barrel. I didn't wuss out, and shot all 5 rds in succession - but was pretty darn sore afterwards.

Now I have the full stock and Federal reduced recoil 9-pellet 00-buck - seems like a better outfit for HD.

Gordon · Feb 12, 2009

I started with one of the first (I saw) Choate PG equipted stocks on my 1100s and 870s in the early 80s. I thought there would be a muscle memory transfer between the PG type stocks on the HK rifles I was using in early 3 gun.Well fast forward to the new millenium and for the last 9 years of expert shot gun training I have gone back to shorter conventional type shotgun stocks where possible. Even on my latest Saiga I am retaining the original stock despite the cool looking AK ones.I do use PG type stocks on non sporting rifles but THAT is another story.
I haven't found any stock better for me than the Hogue 12.5"one in CQB.A wood stock down at 13"with a wide soft recoil pad is just fine too! However for wing and clay shooting I use a 141/4"LOP for stocks with a (non detached vertical) pistol grip and about 1/2" shorter for quail / rabbits or a straight type stock.

MCgunner · Feb 12, 2009

What you call a "full stock" is what I used to call a "pistol grip" stock. Now, a pistol grip stock was simply a wood stock with a drop for the hand where it joined the butt portion, like the picture above this post. This was opposed to the "straight stock", which in shotguns is often called an "English" stock. Between those two styles, I really find no preference. However, real pistol grips are for pistols. I simply don't like 'em on shotguns at all no matter what's attacted to 'em for a butt if anything. The only loaded shotgun in MY house is a coach gun, not because of what a jury might think, but because I'm intimately familiar with it because I hunt with it and I hit with it and it's the logical choice for a safe room gun amongst the shotguns I own. I guess I could use my 10 gauge single shot, but it's kinda heavy, which is a good thing if you pull the trigger on it. LOL My other guns have 28 inch barrels and, truth be told, would work fine for a safe room gun. I don't do the house clearing thing and have never been in any kind of combat and don't reckon I ever will at this point. I'm 56 years old and the army doesn't want me. I couldn't keep up with those kids, anyway. That's probably why they don't want me. Even so, the military has normal stocks on their Mossbergs.

Coronach · Feb 12, 2009

I have to concur with what others have said. I do not like pistol grips on my shotguns. It makes the ergonomics all wonky. They're trying to make the shotgun into an AR-15, and it just doesn't work like that.

However, some people really like it, and if they do, more power to them. As to the OP:

Now, my only concern with the PG stock is, should I actually ever need to use this weapon during an HD encounter, what would a jury/prosecutor think of a shotgun equipped with such an accessory?

No one knows. Each jury and each prosecutor is different. However, if your shoot is righteous, it should not matter much at all. If your shoot is bad, using your grandpa's sxs won't help you.

Mike

inSight-NEO · Feb 12, 2009

I appreciate the comments. It seems like its all a matter of preference, basically. It also seems like those with many years of experience with "traditional" stocks simply prefer them. I can understand this as its probably what you are most used to seeing and using. I can also understand why most people would not recommend a PGO shotgun. Personally, I would never use a PGO shotgun.

Now when you mesh the two styles together, I believe you end up with a fine addition which, IMHO, simply allows for greater versatility whether using buckshot or slugs (unless we are talking about slamming someone with the butt of the gun

). Of course, I think the stock in question (see Benelli pic) counters the "butt stroking" ability with potentially stronger defense against a disarm attempt, given the PG's location relative to center mass. In addition, I have yet to be convinced that a traditional stock offers greater one handed manipulation vs a full PG (not PGO) stock. Again, this is all simply based on what "feels" better to me and honestly, makes more sense. After all, if I dont feel confident in my control over a weapon, I have no business using it for HD.

In reference to an earlier post (regarding the use of slugs); I have fired an extensive amount of this ammo with the full PG stock and/or traditional stock attached. I found that recoil control and effective aim/accuracy were vastly easier for me to achieve with the full PG stock. With the traditional stock, I found myself worrying too much about proper grip/butt stock placement; none of which seemed to suit me as well. Now, this probably has something to do with lack of experience and/or practice. But, given that this is an HD weapon, I dont want to spend time worrying about grip placement and/or blast control. With the full PG stock, I dont have to.

Thanks again for the input.

ReloaderFred · Feb 12, 2009

Like you've observed, it's a matter of personal preference. I don't even think about it when I shoulder a shotgun. It just comes up and when the bead is on target, I press the trigger, and it happens pretty quickly.

I've shot a little trap, and the only skeet I've shot was at the FBI Academy at Quantico, and that was what they called "Combat Skeet". You started with one round in the gun at each station, and when you said "pull", they had 4 seconds to give you anywhere from 1 to 4 birds out of either the high house or low house, or both. The point was to teach combat reloading, and it was quite effective.

Most of my shotgun shooting over the years was related to law enforcement, with very little of it at clay targets. It was either at steel knock down targets or cardboard.

Now I shoot Cowboy Action with a Winchester Model 97, which is the same thing. Start with an empty gun and load and shoot steel targets as fast as you can on the clock. Some courses have had as many as 10 shotgun rounds per stage, single loaded, along with the two pistols and 10 rounds from the rifle. While not intended as training per se, the side benefit is some pretty fast loading and shooting. You should see my wife shoot the Model 97 now, because she was afraid of the shotgun before she took up Cowboy Action Shooting, and now she's fast and deadly on those steel targets.

The point is, practice with what you like, and get good at handling it. It doesn't matter what others like or dislike, as long as it suits you. Attain a level of profiency you're comfortable with and work to maintain it.

Hope this helps.

Fred

inSight-NEO · Feb 12, 2009

I agree ReloaderFred.....

Start with an empty gun and load and shoot steel targets as fast as you can on the clock.

This sounds compelling.

A friend of mine has a decent plot of land which we both utilize for firearm(s) practice. I think I will be trying this seemingly useful exercise upon my next visit. Thanks.

ReloaderFred · Feb 12, 2009

It's great practice, with instant feedback. Just be sure to wear eye protection, and if you can angle your steel targets towards the ground, so much the better. Falling targets are fun, too, but you have to reset them, which slows things down. A swinging target also works well.

Have fun.

Fred

Deltaboy1984 · Feb 12, 2009

I like mine stock. I shot a PGO 1 time at college with a 3 inch 500 grain slug and my wrist and forarm hurt for 2 days and was sore for 3 more.

T191032 · Feb 13, 2009

When I was looking for a replacement stock (shorter length of pull) I had the choice of Choate's Mk V "Conventional" or "Pistol-gripped" stock. I elected to go with the Conventional.

If anyone has read Massad Ayoob's "StressFire II : Advanced Combat Shotgun" you see on pages 107-109 a weapon-retention demonstration between Ayoob and Rick Devoid using a PG-stocked shotgun, then on the other two pages the conventional stock style. It favors the conventional style. Both have their merits and demerits, just have to use some logical thinking before choosing.

9mmepiphany · Feb 13, 2009

Some advantages might include: better control, better defense concerning a possible disarm attempt, allowing for greater one-handed manipulation of a shotgun

Of course, I think the stock in question (see Benelli pic) counters the "butt stroking" ability with potentially stronger defense against a disarm attempt, given the PG's location relative to center mass. In addition, I have yet to be convinced that a traditional stock offers greater one handed manipulation vs a full PG (not PGO) stock. Again, this is all simply based on what "feels" better to me and honestly, makes more sense. After all, if I dont feel confident in my control over a weapon, I have no business using it for HD

i too used to think this and carried a fixed stock stocked shotgun with pistol grip for years because it pointed more like my handgun.

if you take a couple of tactical shotgun courses, you'll find that just the opposite is true. the vector of the pistolgrip is separated from that of the buttstock which actually gives you less one handed control or pointability. the traditional stock supports the grip by extending along your forearm.

the pistolgrip also makes it harderto defend against a disarm attempt...the pistolgrip gives the attacker the advantage in leverage

a larger point is that the pistolgrip interfers with modern/efficient loading techniques

i'm actually at the point of leaning toward the tradition "straight stock" for a HD shotgun as it points faster when using a rib or bead, the standard stock works better with ghost-ring sights because of the higher head position required

9mmepiphany · Feb 13, 2009

The pistol grip makes it easier to keep the shotgun tight to my shoulder while reloading with my support hand. When the 8 round mag tube starts to fill up, the front of the gun tries to lever it off my shoulder.

your using an older method of reloading your shotgun. there are faster. more effiecent ways

inSight-NEO · Feb 13, 2009

the traditional stock supports the grip by extending along your forearm.

Ive tried this both ways and it just seems to me that the PGS gives you a more stable platform. When I lift the shotgun (one handed) using a conventional stock, it seems much more difficult to maintain a solid grip while, at the same time, keeping my "trigger finger" in an optimum postion. Whereas, when I try the same using the PGS, I am able to manipulate (raise) the weapon, maintain a solid firing position and keep the trigger finger where it belongs.

Also, to me, it just seems like the wrist/body angle afforded by the PGS is more conducive to a "pulling" type movement which, I believe, would fare much better given a disarm attempt. Again, this is all just based on my experience with both types of stock.

Another thing; I use GR sights on my Benelli and for the life of me, I could not attain target acquisition nearly as fast when using the conventional stock. The PGS gets me right where I need to be..and fast.

Keep in mind, Im not speaking of the PGO stock. The general misconception, based on many responses to my thread, is that I have been speaking of a pistol grip only stock. This is not the case.

9mmepiphany · Feb 13, 2009

i understand that you are refering to the full-lenght stock with a pistol grip underneath. BTW: if you mean "FPG" to mean "full pistol grip", be aware that full pistol grip is a term used to separate common stocks from straight stocks. what you're refering to is a pistol grip stock and what you'r trying to avoid confusion with is a pistol grip only...at least in LE circles. YMMV

i'm shooting a FN SLP with the GR sights, 18" barrel and 6 round mag.

i just went and tied the balance comparing the grips and i can understand what you are talking about...it's more like a handgun. the traditional stock points faster/mor enatural for me because my hand/mrist are more in line rather than below. and of course i'm shooting with my thumb along the top (like you would with a rifle) rather than gripping the stock.

as to the ability to pull away from a disarm attempt, a disarm technique on a long gun...or a handgun for that matter... doesn't usually consist of "pulling". it's a turning/twisting motion that puts your grasp on the pistol grip at a disadvantage due to it's limited range of motion

inSight-NEO · Feb 13, 2009

Thanks for the continued responses. I guess I will just have to continue researching these matters (via various experiments). Try as I may, I just cant get the "thumb over ring finger" solidity (as acheived with the pistol grip stock), along with optimal index finger placement, when using a more conventional configuration. Maybe I just have small hands. :uhoh:

I also tend to keep my elbow tightly pressed against my ribs when using the pistol grip stock. This seems to keep my elbow to shoulder area locked in parallel with the side of my torso, offering a strong platform (particularly when shooting slugs). With the conventional stock, which seems to force the arm/elbow further away from my body, it feels as if the stability just isnt there.

Anyway, I guess there are just too many factors (ie. physical build, weapon weight/configuration, etc.) which need to be considered when dealing with shotgun configurations. Maybe its just an "apples to oranges" situation. I guess the only thing left to decide here is who likes apples and who prefers oranges.

BTW- I made a few "adjustments" to my last post, per your information, regarding my use of acronyms. Thanks again.

Logan5 · Feb 14, 2009

I ended up taking the PG stock off my M1 Super 90 and swapping in the other one, but it's a bit of a trick question considering my state laws.
When I was in the State's Attorney's office, the rule was that you charged the most serious offense that the facts would support, i.e. murder, criminally negligent homicide, attempted murder, and tried to put your bad guy in prison for 40-50 years on that.
No one wanted to tart up an information with any confusing technical gun definition stuff, because of the jury. I can't tell you what or if they think. My admittedly biased impression is that our system relies on bad guys doing things that put them in front of a jury over and over again until we find one willing to convict. As long as it's legal, the worry over the configuration of your shotgun ought to be the last thing on your mind, since you have to survive the incident to even get to the trial.
Now, my comments are based on pretty limited experience, but it's what I've got... You're probably right to worry about everything you have time to worry about.

greyeyezz · Feb 15, 2009

I find my full PG on my 870 distributes the recoil between my palm and shoulder instead of all straight back into my shoulder with a standard stock. Also the standard synthetic stocks length from the grip to the trigger is way to long for me, and i have large hands. It's just not comfortable. The PG seems like a more natural position than my wrist twisted. For me anyway.

9mmepiphany · Feb 15, 2009

part of it is a cultural thing. the straight stock is an extension of the gasp from the spear...it drives into the target.

the stock with a full pistolgrip, as seen on most shotgun and rifles, is meant to relax the strain on the wrist and allow pointing with the trigger finger.

a detached pistol grip added to a full stock does split the recoil if you're pushing forward on the pistolgrip. but shouldn't you be pulling the stock into your shoulder to keep from getting battered by the stock?

inSight-NEO · Feb 15, 2009

Thanks.....

the stock with a full pistolgrip, as seen on most shotgun and rifles, is meant to relax the strain on the wrist and allow pointing with the trigger finger.

I agree. This is why the above config is what I am using (assuming we are speaking of the same thing here).

a detached pistol grip added to a full stock does split the recoil if you're pushing forward on the pistolgrip. but shouldn't you be pulling the stock into your shoulder to keep from getting battered by the stock?

Ditto. The above (pictured) stock allows for very solid "pull" into the shoulder.

9mmepiphany · Feb 15, 2009

This is why the above config is what I am using (assuming we are speaking of the same thing here).

sorry for the confusion again, i was refering to the grip you don't like. the next sentence refers to your prefered grip

evan price · Feb 16, 2009

I personally prefer an 18" barrel and full wood buttstock on a HD shotgun. Why? Let's say you are clearing your living room, and the goblin just happens to be right there in front of you. With a standard butt I can just push out and belt him with the side of the buttstock, or do a full-on buttstroke. Buttstroking with a Knoxx stock or a plastic AR style adjustable... not conducive to the lifespan of the stock.

You've got to consider that not every problem winds up in front of the barrel of the gun. HTH control of the shotgun is much more powerful with a conventional butt than a PG.

Concerning HD shotguns: Pistol Grip Stock vs Standard stock

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